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Ruth on Question on God, Consequences, Beliefs and Avoiding the Questions

Discussion in 'General Talk' started by JoeFlux, Mar 13, 2014.

  1. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    Regarding the idea that humans have eternal souls but it is just a matter of where we spend eternity, I believe that is actually what Satan tried to sell Eve.
    He said that she would not REALLY die. In reality, we are born with a sin nature and once we reach the age of accountability, we all sin and will be eternally separated from God and suffer death - both body and soul - if we do not come to a saving faith. Satan was wrong and so is the teaching of ECT.
    Matthew 10:28
    Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
    Revelation 20:14
    Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
     
  2. roman8

    roman8 Advanced Poster

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    Ruth , again you have made yourself the judge. According to the Word of God there is only one that would cast doubt on what God has said, and any spirit that tells you His word is not true is not God. It is the doubting of Gods word that caused the fall .
    Yes The God of the Bible is Love , he is justice , he is also "Consuming Fire" . He did what needed to be done to keep the people he had chosen for himself to be a holy people, pure and undefiled by the pagan nations who sacrificed there children and worshiped false gods. It is a picture of how sin must be dealt with. You are right we are not our own we never have been and never will be, he can do what he pleases ,and he will do what needs to be done because he see the whole picture . Just to make it clear, God no where condones the rape of anyone , If you think he does then you are not reading it correctly.

    I understand why some of the things that God ordered done upset you and that you would want to claim that he did not do it. But in doing that ( picking and chosing what God did or said) you end up creating a God that is not the God of the bible , God the creator of the universe, and you have created a god that is your own , a false god and Idol. He is love , but he is not only love. How can you judge God with mans wisdom ? Which is what you are using ( mans wisdom) since you claim no personal revelation.

    Where does God say he will teach all things to your heart? He does say he will put his Law in our hearts and eternity on our hearts , and the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth and Gods word is Truth.
    You say you never claimed personal revelation , but that is exactly what you do by saying that even though God claims his word is Truth , pure and preserved , you say you somehow know different,, That is personal revelation. I will quote you (" I just also listen when He Tells me some parts are not his word but added by men" )
    I did not put words in your mouth , you do presuppose that they have the right to hear. You are correct, God is not willing that any should perish, but If you look at the word of God all those that came to saving faith HEARD the word of God. If they do not hear , it says in Romans they will be judged on what they do know. But you Ruth have the word of God in your hands and have no excuse for denying his word. He will be just , but considering we are all enemies of God before salvation , the very fact that he saves any of us is amazing.

    I feel that this is a vain thing for me to try and tell you that All of Gods word is true , there really is no point in me to keep telling you, when God himself has already told us that it is. You do add to Gods word when you claim he has told you something different , you also take away , both of which we are commaned not to do. You keep going back to what you think God has revealed to you personaly. Im telling you On the Authority of Gods word, that any spirit that denies Gods word is not Gods spirit.
     
  3. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    You completely misunderstand what I am saying. You are assuming that HEARING God's word must come from men. God is the one who speaks it to their hearts. In the end, scripture tells us the Angels deliver the gospel to the whole world: Revelation 14:6
    [ The Three Angels ] Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people.

    Do you think people aren't saved because they never read a Bible or met a missionary?

    IF God can speak to any heart, any where to get His message to them to bring them to a saving faith then why do those of us in developed countries with access to the Bible have to be limited to the written word and college trained preachers to communicate to us?

    You claim that the Bible is God's word and then you rightly admit that Jesus is THE WORD. If Jesus is the Word then what happens when the written word contradicts His nature of love?

    I believe that God's word is within the Bible but anything that is contrary to His nature is NOT His word.

    You are putting your faith in men that they compiled the writings and the words into that book that were God directed. Why them and not to the seeking heart who has never seen a Bible or learned Greek?

    Because I do know my Shepherd's voice, as scriptures says we would, and I know His heart - I also know that there are things in the Bible that God would never have done. And Jesus even corrects them in His incarnation ministry.

    Whether you realize it or not, you are putting a book between you and your creator. I am not the judge, God is. Men are not the judge to tell me what is and is not God's word, God is.
    1 John 4
    God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
     
  4. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    Deut 20
    10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
    16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.

    Jesus corrects that:
    Matthew 5
    Eye for Eye
    38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
    Love for Enemies
    43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    You think the same God said both of those things? They are in direct contrast with one another. Do you realize how many people have slammed the door on God because of the things people claim were done in His name as written in the OT?

    I love Israel. I believe God gave them the land and I support them 100% and pray for them every day. I know that when Jesus returns it will be to rescue them from their enemies. But I do think that ambitious men did things and claimed God told them to do it and when He came to teach us and die in our place, we learned how to know what was what.
     
  5. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    This is your agenda? To preach to us about your faith in atheism regardless of the evidence.

    So you are not as open minded as you keep preaching.
     
  6. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    Since you don't believe in God or ultimate consequences then its no surprise that this doesn't make sense you.

    God created the Law and he will judge us by that Law. If God says ULTIMATELY that the penalty for death could be substituted then is that believable?
     
    roman8 likes this.
  7. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    What you are saying is that people who don't believe in Christ get some kind of second chance. There is no second chance mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

    The problem that we need to be aware of is that if you are preaching a different gospel (which you are) the very people you are trying to save are at grave risk. You have told them a lie in that God will not eternally punish those who have transgressed his Law which the Bible clearly shows will happen. That they don't need to believe now since God will save them "later".

    Fact? Since you only believe the parts of the Bible that suit you and those that make you uncomfortable you reject, you can't very well claim to have all the facts.
    Your faith is based on purely emotional circumstances.

    We are told very clearly not to lean on our own understandings and we are not to trust our own hearts or emotions.

    Its very telling that you would like for everyone to be saved and that there is no Hell and suffering. That's all very nice to think about as a human and natural as a human being to want that to be true. But the Bible says
    What you "feel" is "right" as a human being is not what God "feels". What you "think" as a human being isn't what God "thinks".
     
    roman8 likes this.
  8. roman8

    roman8 Advanced Poster

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    Yes I do believe it is the one and only true God that said both In Deut 19 and in Matthew 5. To put it in the most simple way . Different ages . The Lord in Deut had just laid out the way things should be handled, and was talking in that instance about those who bear false witness. The eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth is saying that the bearer of false witness will pay the fine for what he intended to be laid upon an innocent person. It was not to be taken literaly. But in Matthew 5 like you Ruth the Pharisees did take it literaly and the Lord was in no way correcting his law but expanding on what the spirit of the law is. In the age of grace , thank God we no longer follow the letter of the law but the spirit of the law . Just as he said to the woman at the well , we worship in spirit and in Truth. But Im tired of trying to tell you to stop saying that there are errors in Gods word , if it was truly full of errors do you think the bible would have survived so long and continued to change lives. If I, like you, thought when I read Gods word that some of it was not true , I would never read it again, because he would have lied to me . I think you really need to decide whose side your on. But for the most part Im done here with this thread. Praying for you Ruth.
     
  9. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    We are told that God never changes. I was as you are - trying to defend the indefensible that makes no sense. Even your heart tells you that you are defending something with human 'logic' but is not true.

    There are no errors in God's word. His Word is perfect and spoken to our hearts.

    Romans 2:
    14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
     
  10. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    Where in the world do you think I say that?
    You completely misunderstood or misread what I said. Please go back and re-read it. There is no point in my responding to this erroneous answer.

    Again - I NEVER said that.
    I am saying the punishment is NOT eternal. We do not have eternal life until we come to saving faith.

    The idea that we are eternal beings is not in scripture. I posted the scriptures in Gen and Rev showing that it is only with access to the tree of life that we have eternal life made possible through the work and resurrection through our faith and His grace that it is possible.

    So how do mortal beings be eternally tormented? Are you aware of some scripture where there is a tree of life in hell?

    Then you are choosing which you want to believe and what you don't that suits your religion. Jesus said those who belong to Him will know His voice and follow Him.
    Evidently you know of a scripture that tells us that we ignore His voice and follow men.

    How so? God wants everyone to be saved. I think I'm in good company. Unfortunately, everyone will not use their free will to be saved.
    1 Tim 2
    3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

    I never said that either. This issue is difficult enough to discuss, I don't think it is fair for you to keep claiming complete untruths of what I have said.

    Unless you decide to actually read what I said and decide to discuss that or better yet - watch the video that explains it better than I can - I don't see any point in you and I sparring over your misunderstanding and misrepresentations.
     
  11. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    OK maybe I am missing something. What teaching do you personally believe is anti-biblical?
     
  12. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    The message of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation is a love story between God and His creation.
    Adam and Eve were given the choice to love and trust self or love and trust God.
    They chose self. This created a break in the relationship and out of God's love for them, He barred them from the garden of Eden so they could not eat from the Tree of Life and live in this fallen, broken state forever. It was an act of love.

    The journey from there was God continuing to give each person who reaches the age of reason to make the free will choice to choose trust and love of self over trust and love of God.

    All choose as as Adam and Eve did. God offers us His forgiveness and grace, made possible through the work and love of Christ, if we choose trusting and loving Him over self. Most, due to their pride and love of self, will reject that gift.

    Those of us who humble ourselves to Him and received His amazing gift, will be given access to the tree of Life in heaven to live eternally with Him. We are saved by faith alone, by grace alone, by Christ alone.

    I wanted to clarify what the Gospel message is as I read it in scripture so you don't jump to wrong conclusions.

    The idea that we are already eternal beings but Christ came to save us from eternal torment is anti-Biblical. It cannot and is not supported by scripture. Jesus came to offer us eternal life. If we already had it but it was just a matter of where we spend that eternity then why didn't He say it that way? Instead He came to OFFER us eternal life.

    In Genesis, God warned Adam and Eve that the wages of sin is death. That same message is throughout the scriptures. He also warned that each would be judged for their sins and punished accordingly for them. Death is not immediate but after they have proportionately paid their debt. The Jews believed it to be a limited amount of time but definitely not never ending.

    The support, by the scriptures, is presented by Edward Fudge, a lawyer who attended seminary and challenged the concept of eternal torment and spent 30 years researching it. I may not agree with him on all of what he believes but I am 100% convinced that the wages of sin is not eternal torment.

    Here is a video of his presentation of why he believes, as I do now, that eternal torment is not supported by scripture.
    This is a better laid out presentation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2014
  13. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    I wanted to add a clarification on one issue that keeps popping up on this - I am in no way involved or condone or believe in SDA teachings. The fact that they reject eternal torment is simply the wedge that took Edward Fudge on his journey to take the issue on.

    Rejecting eternal torment doesn't make anyone an SDA anymore than those who do believe in eternal torment are Mormon or Muslim since they also believe in eternal torment. What we all need to consider is the message of the cross as supported by scripture from Genesis through Revelation.
     
  14. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    God making us in His image means what exactly if we are not born having eternal souls. Souls that are spiritual and eternal.
    Are you saying that premature babies and infants and toddlers just cease to exist when they die since they do not believe in Christ and can't make appropriate faith based choices?

    The Bible clearly shows there are 2 deaths. What are they exactly?

    The Bible says this:

    What is Jesus speaking of here when he talks about eternal fire, eternal punishment, and eternal life?

    So you believe in Annihilation?

    You reject parts of the Bible that make you feel uncomfortable (because you say they were written by fallible "men") and instead believe the studies of this fallible "man"? Which in previous posts you have been shown were in error based on flawed word studies he uses and you rejected that as well without good reason?

    Fudge is jumping through hoops to get to this belief system.
     
  15. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    Genesis 3
    21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

    I do believe that babies and children and anyone who is unable to rebel, condemning their soul, return to God.

    Matthew 10:28
    Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


    Eternal punishment is to be eternally dead. He came to OFFER us eternal life.

    John 3
    16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
    The Bible consistently offers the hearer - life or death and God asks us to choose life.
    I believe that the lost are mortal beings. There is no tree of Life in hell for them to eat from and be eternal as the Bible describes.
    Revelation 2:7
    Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

    This issue of the man made doctrine of eternal torment has nothing to do with my issues with the additions men have made to God's word and compiled into the Bible.

    I have not been shown my error at all. You nor any human has authority over me. I listen to and serve God alone. You want to let a religion malign God's character because you march in lock step with them, that is your choice and to which you will be held accountable. I simply shared what I have learned.

    You obviously didn't watch the video. No problem. You keep telling the lost that God will eternally torment them if they don't bow to Him and it is you, not I, who will be accountable to Him for continuing to sell that lie causing folks to be lost as they slam the door on Him for rightly seeing that as extortion.

    God does not need to extort anyone into heaven. His gift is far too amazing to be forced on anyone.

    Eternal torment teachings only bring people into self preservation, not a love for God.

    Removing that threat and showing people the love of God displayed on the cross is more than enough to fill heaven with those who want to be there because they love God rather than not wanting to be eternally tormented.
     
  16. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    So when one loses their innocence they gain a soul in your beliefs?

    Adam had a soul when God made mankind complete in Gen 1
    And how does a baby with no soul believe in Christ to "gain eternal life" per your belief system?

    So you condemn Paul an actual apostle of Christ for preaching to the lost in this manner as well? I suppose he got it all wrong in Acts 17 where he preaches to pagans and doesn't mention the Cross, or love or forgiveness, but only wrath and judgement and yet many were saved?

    Using only love and forgiveness and "warm fuzzies"does not work on everyone per the scriptures. So you saying you have exclusive knowledge of how one should be preaching the good news fails in light of the scriptures in Acts 17.
     
  17. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    I have no idea what you are talking about. Where in the world do you get that from what I said?

    Per my belief system? I quoted scripture.

    I believe we are born with a sin nature. Those who never reach an age where they rebel against God (sin) or the intellect to make the conscious choice, they return to God.

    For those who do reach that age and sin - they will not return to God unless they repent and put their faith in Christ and receive His gift of eternal life.

    Are we even speaking the same language? Where did I say such a thing? I don't see anywhere where Paul says that the wages of sin is eternal torment. Paul preaches to the lost that the wages of sin is death and the gift of God is eternal life.

    Romans 8:2
    because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

    You certainly jump to a lot of conclusions and read a lot of what I didn't say into what I write. I'm not sure who you are arguing with but it clearly isn't me.

    Do you think that I am not a Christian because I don't embrace the doctrine of eternal torment or inerrant Bible? Because I believe the gospel unto salvation is to put my faith in Christ alone by God's amazing grace alone, by the work of Christ alone.

    Do you have scripture to show me where the added requirements of believing in eternal torment and inerrancy of the written Bible is required?

    I would love for you to bring on some more objections - I can offer all the scripture you need for my support.
    1 Corinthians 15:55
    “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”
    How come that doesn't talk about Christ's victory over eternal torment?

    By the way - since Christ paid our debt - is He enduring eternal torment in our place?
     
  18. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    Lets clarify with a proper study instead of one where you have filtered the bible through your belief system and you add your own personal meanings to the context.

    What you quoted was after the fall. Bible shows man was created with an eternal soul before the fall. Meaning he had both flesh and spirit. Humans are spiritual and physical beings. Spirit/souls are eternal they do not die, they do not cease to exist and they will not be annihilated.

    The scriptures say:

    The human heart was created at the time of Adam meaning humans had eternal spirits at Adam. Humans are eternal beings with eternal destinies from creation on.

    Again we were made FROM THE BEGINNING in the image of God:

    Ruth we were made in the likeness of God from the beginning. It is very very clear, and very very straight forward per the scriptures.
     
  19. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    Then why did God say this?
    Gen 3
    1 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.

    John 3
    16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
     
  20. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    I also notice that you didn't answer several of my questions from my post. Is Jesus suffering eternal torment in our place?

    Trying to frame this around your belief system that humans are eternal beings and will be eternally tormented if they are not redeemed is to deny:
    The Tree of Life
    Jesus came to OFFER us ETERNAL LIFE
    And to rely on a dictionary to redefine the word PERISH
     

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