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Ruth on Question on God, Consequences, Beliefs and Avoiding the Questions

Discussion in 'General Talk' started by JoeFlux, Mar 13, 2014.

  1. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    Because you are all over the place in your beliefs and quite confusing.
    My previous post is foundational in continuing this discussion.

    I'm not answering any other questions until you have answered this one.

    I clearly showed you where God made us in his image in the beginning and its continually referenced throughout the scriptures.

    Gen 3:22 is AFTER the fall of man. It has nothing to do with the creation of man and God giving him an eternal soul as I showed you earlier.

    So you are quoting the scripture out of its given context.

    Do you understand that when you take a line of scripture out of its original context it becomes meaningless?
     
  2. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    So in other words, you have no answer to a direct question and the clear scripture I posted that is NOT out of context and you know it.

    I am NOT all over the place. I have been consistent on this issue.
    For your belief system to be valid, you have to discount Gen 3, the Tree of Life, and that Jesus came to offer us eternal life, plus stretch the definition of the word perish.
    The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment. Jesus conquered death, not eternal torment.

    You can spin it however you want to so you can hold onto your doctrine of man, but it doesn't make it truth.

    Jesus came to offer us eternal life. He died in in our place, paid our debt as our redeemer. He is not in eternal torment because that was never the penalty for sin.

    I realize you are scared to sincerely look at this issue but I hope one day you find the courage to do so.

    Your responses are not in the order or a discussion where you have any interest in seriously considering anything I say and think you can just intimidate me.
    That boat sailed a long time ago. I hope one day you actually watch the video and give this issue some serious consideration. Because it is truth.
     
  3. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    I told you I'm not going to answer you on any other issues until you clarify yourself on the points I made above. Which you have not...twice now.
    Reason being is that once this is resolved all the other questions you have go away. So go ahead and answer.

    I showed you the scripture and I showed you where you were wrong. You are the one avoiding.

    Consistently wrong. And your beliefs are all over the place especially since you reject the bible and have no foundation for determining truth by this rejection.

    I showed you Gen 3 the way you use it is meaningless. Explain the context of the verse as it is written in the scriptures, Ruth, not something Mr. Fudge mislead you to believe. We already had eternal life per the verses I showed you and you avoided outright yet again.

    Stretch the definition? Here it is again:
    Now show me where it means annihilation? Show me any dictionary in the world where perish literally means annihilate.

    It doesn't. There is a completely different word used for annihilation and this word is not it.
    Perish does not mean annihilation. One doesn't mean Five. Orange doesn't mean Apple. Words have meanings and definitions.

    The meaning of the word perish is what is being shown to you Ruth. And if you reject literal definitions as defined by literal dictionaries that then you might as well throw away every text ever written because you have no way to validate the meaning of or usage or context of any word ever written.

    There are 2 deaths. And he conquered both.

    The Bible is clear. You believe Mr. Fudge a fallible man over what the scriptures actually say.

    Because Hell could not hold Him.

    You are avoiding issue.

    Why would I watch a video of a fallible man who I know is already wrong in all his beliefs based on what the scriptures state. Is that video supposed to sway me? No.

    You are avoiding again.
     
  4. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    Have you watched the video I originally posted? I'm guessing no since you don't mention anything in it.
    Have you answered any of my questions such as is Jesus suffering eternal torment on our behalf - which all of my questions were before your attempt to divert from the proof I have provided.

    We may have been created in His image but He ALSO says that He came to OFFER us eternal life. Only God is eternal. We cannot be eternal without the tree of life.

    You're choosing to ignore that fact does not make it go away.


    The only thing I am avoiding is your attempt to intimidate and bully me.

    I read the scriptures for what they actually say - not loaded with a bunch of commentaries and dictionaries.

    The tree of life is required for us to live forever. There is no tree of life in Hell. There is no amount of shouting me down or claims of quoting scripture out of context that can explain away that truth.

    John 3:16 spells it out pretty clearly - the lost perish and the redeemed are given eternal life.

    Jesus came to offer us eternal life. If we already had it but it was just a matter of where we spent it then He certainly didn't make that very clear.

    You clearly have no desire to discuss and are just interested in judging me and trying to shout me down.

    It is pretty clear why people don't post at this forum much.

    I know that I would rather spend my time somewhere where people want to have respectful dialog instead of with those who refuse to consider for one minute that they may NOT have all the answers. Because you certainly don't.

    I'm done. You are welcome to have the last word. I couldn't care less.
     
  5. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    One last thing - since you think being made in God's image means that makes us eternal then I guess you also think that we are all omniscient and omnipresent and omnipotent too. Now I'm done.
     
  6. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Ruth, I am commenting here as Admin.

    No one has been disrespectful to you or bullied you. In fact, you have been the one throwing personal accusations.

    No one has asked or hinted for you to leave. If you do so it is because you choose to do so.

    Answering a question with a question is evasion, not discussion. Sorry, has to be said. You need to prove what YOU believe when asked.

    The only questions I have for you is if we cannot read a verse using proper word meaning, how can we understand it? If we do not abide by rules of grammar, then how are we to read it? When one claims the Holy Spirit spoke to them, how do we know it was not their own desires or even a demon actually speaking? If you believe the Bible has been corrupted, then how can you trust anything in it?

    These are questions everyone has to ask themselves when considering any belief system.

    As I said, I am speaking as Admin here and doing so in support of the intent and purpose of the site. Not to stir debate with you.

    If you want to change minds, then answer the questions. Prove your case. Walking away is an admission you cannot.

    Yes, you have been challenged to stay, think about how you approach debate and try again.:tiphat:
     
  7. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    I hate to say this but you are a little biased. I think it is wrong of someone to blow past what someone has presented and never commenting on any validity to what I have said and then they claim to have presented the final word/retort and then claiming that unless I refute what they think is the final word on it they won't respond to mine. That, is bullying, not discussion or debate.

    I did NOT quote anything out of context. I also posted a video that your co-admin refuses to watch. That is fine but to claim I have been refuted and that I can't defend my side of things when the other person refuses to even acknowledge what I have said or presented, in my mind is trying to bully the conversation instead of having a respectful, two way conversation.

    Anyone who has an open mind to consider what I have presented, I will be happy to debate. But the other admin poster is not interested in a debate but just demanding that I agree with them under their terms. Respect is a two way street. They refuse to watch the video but insist that I answer their questions. They refuse to answer my quesions but I am supposed to answer all of theirs.

    I'm not going to keep coming back here to defend myself. I've done nothing wrong but present what I have learned for discussion. My position has a lot of validity to it but we will never see real debate with the way this has gone.

    You asked for posters to enter into the discussions. I did. But not under these terms of demands without equal repect.
     
  8. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    That is your option. But because someone disagrees with you does not mean no respect.
     
  9. roman8

    roman8 Advanced Poster

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    I do think that what Ruth has presented about the doctrine of hell is something we should not be afraid to look at. there are more than Mr. Fudge who hold this view. Question, what does the word Image mean. I have been searching for a clear definition . Does an image mean more than what is defined. From what I can find an image is not the same as the original. Im not saying that I agree with this view but worth looking at .
     
  10. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    Thank you.
    I do think that we all owe it to our Lord and Savior to examine the views we hold that frame His character to the lost. I cannot think of any doctrine taught by the body of Christ that has a greater influence in drawing folks closer or having them slam the door on the primary message of the gospel than the doctrine of eternal torment.

    Punishment has a purpose and eternal torment serves no purpose. Punishment is to curtail behavior but since it is only a doctrine taught and not observed until one is experiencing it, it does not accomplish that. Punishment is to rehabilitate but if it is eternal and never ending, it does not offer hope.

    Revelation describes a new heaven and a new earth where all is made new and no more tears.
    If I thought that my loved ones who rejected the Lord were in eternal torment, I would be in eternal torment too knowing they suffered such.

    The doctrine, sincerely examined, does not hold up to the scrutiny of the scriptures. Of course people can and do defend it with select scriptures and redefining words but in the whole counsel of God, it is not found.

    My curiosity to examine it was first peaked when I was watching a movie and a Jew and Christian were walking along and something was said and the Christian asked, "Aren't you afraid of eternal torment in hell?" The Jewish woman answered, "that is a Christian doctrine and not held by the Jewish faith."

    That is when I decided to look into it since Christianity is supposed to be based on the Jewish texts. My research found that it was a doctrine that was rooted in the Augustine era and was not taught prior to that. It is glaringly missing from the disciples teachings of the gospel.

    God spent 2000 years with all kinds of foreshadowing and examples of the work Christ would do on our behalf. There is nothing laid out picturing eternal torment. We are mortal beings.

    God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent - we are not.
    God is immortal/eternal and we are not unless it is given to us with access to the Tree of Life (blocked from it in the Garden after the fall and offered to eat from it in heaven for the redeemed. There is no tree of life/eternal life available in hell.

    Jesus came to offer us eternal life - He said that often. If we already had it but it was just a matter of where we spent it then His message was not clear at all and that is out of character for God to mask such a horrific option and makes His gospel message extortion, not a gift as a reward for faith.
     
  11. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    That is not a fair statement. I have shown that I am more than willing to discuss with someone who disagrees with me. That is what discussion is all about. I love a good debate. But it has to be equally respectful or it is just intimidation and bullying if one side is in a position of power and lays down 'demands.'

    When someone enters into a discussion and refuses to review the material presented to support ones point of view and then demands that I fully acknowledge theirs - that is wrong.
     
  12. Jessie

    Jessie Pro Poster

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    I dont believe the spirit ever dies when one leaves this earth.
    what about lazarus and the rich man??
    and all that is good will be gone for those in hell. God will not be there..... also, different levels of judgement.
    they wanted it their way. they will have it their way, He wont be around.
    what about mark 9:43?
     
    roman8 likes this.
  13. roman8

    roman8 Advanced Poster

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    Yes, I do think that Lazaus and the rich man is a good example of the spirit living and being aware after death , alot of people will say that it is a parable but it is different than any of the other parables if it is , which I dont think that it is. For example the Lord always says if it is a parable and in this he does not, also no other parable names a name of a person.
     
  14. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    There is nothing horrific about God.
    God is loving, just, and holy.

    We don't get to decide that which is just for a holy God (ie. to condemn lost souls to an eternal suffering) because it seems "unjust" to us as mere humans.
    Since we are not God we cannot fathom God's holiness.
     
  15. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Ruth, it is a fair statement. Long before you every registered here I have been well aware of the arguments for your doctrine. I have considered them and studied them.

    I own this site and pay all the bills, so the responsibility for rule making falls on me. Many other boards will not even allow anyone who disagrees with the Admin to post. You get banned instantly. A good number have no rules and nothing but attacks and arguing occur. Nothing good comes out of it and those boards die.

    You have not been threatened with banning or anything else. In fact, you have been encouraged to continue the discussion.

    Doing so gives you an opportunity to prove your doctrine. But, on the flip side, it also allows others to see it if you cannot.
    I hold this verse as extremely important and critical to sanctification. The key is our ability to submit to what God shows us, not what we want to hear.

    Many religions, cults, etc claim their thinking is proven by their hearts listening to God. But the heart is deceptive above all things.

    This is a fact we all have to be on guard about to ensure we stay on the true path.
     
  16. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    With the change in policy concerning me debating, I will kick in some notes here.

    Ruth says basically parts of the Bible have been corrupted by Man. Interestingly she does not define those places and provide any proof of her claim. Reality is the OT has been confirmed by thousands of pieces of manuscript evidence as being what we have today. Christ quoted the OT but never challenged any as being corrupted by Man.

    She says you don't find Eternal Torment in the OT. Actually, you do.

    To make her case, as posted prior, she changes the definitions of key words such as 'torment and punishment.' They simply do not mean what she says.

    When you read the Bible literally it states sinners go to Hell, a real place at the bottom of the real Pit and are being punished now. You then see, at the end of time, they are thrown into the Pit for Eternal punishment.

    If we cannot trust all the Bible we can trust none of it. If something is revealed to us personally that contradicts the Bible, it is not from God, per the Bible.

    It is a human condition we all suffer from, meaning wanting to find what gives us personal comfort we can agree with totally. The Bible just does not do that.
     

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