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Ruth on Question on God, Consequences, Beliefs and Avoiding the Questions

Discussion in 'General Talk' started by JoeFlux, Mar 13, 2014.

  1. JoeFlux

    JoeFlux New Member

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    Some people do think critically about their beliefs. They then become atheists.

    Once you start requiring evidence and reason for your beliefs, you can't remain a Christian.
     
  2. JoeFlux

    JoeFlux New Member

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    I fully agree that a God that creates hell and then condemns people to hell for not worshipping him is an evil God.

    But you've fallen in the trap that every believer does. You don't like something, so your reread the scripture until you've convinced yourself that the scripture agrees with you. The scripture is so flexible and contradictory that you can read it however you want and come to whatever conclusion that you want.
     
  3. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    On the contrary. Once you start examining the evidence and setting your heart on seeking Him, not among men but sincerely seeking Him, you do find Him and the truth.
     
  4. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    You are in correct. I have examined the scriptures to see if what today's church teaches can be supported and the doctrine of eternal torment cannot be. Edward Fudge did extensive research and has several books showing his research and why the teaching is anti-Biblical.

    Those teaching it have done what you said. They've taken a few scriptures and built a doctrine around it while ignoring the whole counsel of God. The wages of sin is death. That is what is taught in Genesis to Adam and Eve and throughout the scriptures. Jesus overcame death through His resurrection, He did not overcome the fate of eternal torment. Paul said, "Death, where is your sting?" That makes no sense if the fate were eternal torment.

    I belong to no organized religion or attend any building wrapped in doctrines of men.
     
  5. JoeFlux

    JoeFlux New Member

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    The "setting your heart on seeking Him" introduces what scientists call "confirmation bias" and is something that must be avoided. I will go where the evidence leads me. That is the only honest course of action.

    I will rationally, scientifically and sincerely examine any evidence that you can offer in support for the existence of the Christian God.
     
  6. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    If it is on topic, then we should be able to continue discussing it here. If you disagree, then please move the posts you want discussed in another thread.

    I personally believe that the extortion of eternal torment or bow to God is the number one reason people don't pursue the religion of Christianity. It is probably one of the most important topics Christians should be discussing because it represents God's character to the lost. If wrong, which I believe those who teach eternal torment are, then they are putting a huge stumbling block before many and representing God to be a cosmic monster.

    I believe, as the Jews did and what can be supported by scripture, that the suffering of those who owe a debt to God for their sins is proportionate to their sins. Jesus made that clear. However, it is not eternal. The word eternal is not translated the way it is portrayed in the doctrine of eternal torment. There is overwhelming evidence for those who sincerely research it.

    The problem is, as Edward Fudge ran into, is the backlash of mainstream Christianity to dare question the doctrine that most who reject it stay silent out of fear of their fellow Christians. It is time that we discuss it rationally and without fear of blind following of a doctrine that is so contrary to God's nature and our own sense of justice that it makes more people reject God in one day than any other issue that can be discussed.
     
  7. JoeFlux

    JoeFlux New Member

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    Plus the many other immoral parts of the bible. God killing 25 million people in the Old Testament. God telling us that it's okay to whip our slaves half to death. God telling us that he'll punish our children if we follow the wrong God. God telling us to stone our children to death if they are disobedient etc.

    Plus the simple lack of evidence for a God.
     
  8. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    LOL How does a scientist explain why a fireman will run into a burning building to rescue a stranger even when he knows he may die doing so?
    The only thing that can cause the strongest man in the world to bow to his knees without a threat - is love.

    What you call science today is just a religion worshiping human beings as the end all. Reminds me of a joke.

    The scientist called out to God and said we don't need you anymore.
    God said, "How so?"
    The scientist said, "We've discovered how to create life."
    God said, "Show me."
    The scientist then reached down to get a handful of dirt and God stopped him and said, "No, get your own dirt."

    You can deny God and cling to the priests of so called science that make up most of their 'theories' that are never proven but taught as fact but to deny it is a religion where you put your faith in the doctrines of men is to be naive in what you are really doing.

    Tell me a few things that you believe science about that you think prove there is not God.
     
  9. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    I am not one who thinks the Bible is infallible. I do believe that it contains God's word as evidence by rich truths that science is just now discovering are true and prophecy and the foundations of His message to us. But I also think that men added to it over the years to justify their own injustices while claiming God told them to do it.

    I let my personal relationship with Him teach me which is which. Once you enter into an eternal relationship with Him, you know His voice and follow Him, not men.

    There is ample evidence of God.

    Here are a few questions for you - why is earth the only planet we have found with beauty on it? Why are all the surrounding planets, including the moon, just dull, blank ugly rocks? Why is there such beauty on earth that just happens to touch our hearts and be able to be seen by our eyes? There is no purpose to it from a scientific perspective.

    You deny the obvious of the human heart, love, joy, tears, justice, compassion, etc. Science will not ever explain it because it goes to the heart of God, our creator. Even Darwin had to admit that the complexities of the human body and even the human eye goes far beyond what could have simply 'evolved.'

    Recently, the DNA codes were discovered to be so complex that many scientists realized that it could only come from intelligent design.

    If you saw writing on the sand at the beach would you assume it just happened due to the way the waves flooded back and forth or would you automatically realize that an intelligence put it there? Well that is what scientists are realizing with the DNA complex code. It is far past the idea of just evolving. It clearly has an intelligent designer.
     
  10. JoeFlux

    JoeFlux New Member

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    First off, you simply not understanding something does not mean that there is a supernatural explanation.

    Second, we've known the reason for a long time. The mechanical explanation is that in times of danger to ourselves or others, our body is flooded with adrenaline, which dampens our rational thinking and increases our emotions. The reason for this response is just evolution:

    Tribes which protected each other survived better than tribes that didn't.

    We see this behaviour in most pack animals. There are many videos on youtube of animals putting their own life at risk in order to save others. I can find some for you if you want.

    It's not a religion or a faith for the very simple reason that it is based on evidence and is scientifically testable and falsifiable.

    The burden of proof is not on me.

    Do you believe that there are flying pink unicorns? Presumably not. Yet you cannot prove that they do not exist.

    The burden of proof is on you to provide evidence that God exists.
     
  11. JoeFlux

    JoeFlux New Member

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    Okay, so you believe that God wants us to know him, but he provides us with a fallible book with many inaccuracies?

    Doesn't that strike you as a little strange?

    This introduces personal bias - such as confirmation bias.

    You need objective unbiased evidence.

    We find something "beautiful" if it is likely to support us.

    You find no beauty in Jupiter? http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/life-unbounded/files/2011/12/Jupiter-Close-Up.jpg

    Or Saturn: http://d1jqu7g1y74ds1.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/cassinirings.jpg (That's a real photo btw)


    Sure there is - the purpose of beauty is to make us look after our environment and to stay where it is safe. Evolution at its best.

    No he didn't - sorry. This is a common mistake told by Christians, but if you check it's just simply not true.

    And by "some" you mean the tiny tiny percentage of creationists? This is not a majority view at all.

    This is simply just not true.
     
  12. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
    Proof is directly to the heart who sincerely seeks Him.

    You mock Him and think that your priests of the religion of science have answers you accept. That pretty much shuts your mind to anything anyone would say so what is the point?

    I am not here for your entertainment for me to present to you why I believe and have you mock it. I'm sure you can find plenty of people who are willing to play that game. I'm not one of them.

    I'm strong enough in my faith and far enough along in my walk to know that nothing I can say will change your mind. Only God can do that when your heart is willing to stop being afraid of finding the truth and open your heart up to what the truth is - no matter what.
     
  13. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    I agree with you Ruth.

    Several atheists have come to the knowledge of Christ by examining the evidence.
     
  14. Ruth

    Ruth Getting Started

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    No. The same one who spoke the universe into existence and told us prophecy from the beginning can also speak to the heart who seeks Him in what is and is not His word.

    I find it far more likely that men will write things down and add to God's word and tell people that He told them to do those things to cover their own misdeeds.

    All I have to do is look to the heart of God and realize that He never would have told them to do that.

    Why? You don't. You believe in evolution and yet there is not one ounce of proof.
    They point at bones and claim it is this or that. They make up stories of how they think it all happened and you believe it as if they are gods.

    I know I will answer to God so I am careful about what I believe and attest to be Him and what is not.

    That doesn't even make sense.

    You miss the point. Clearly any points I make are lost on you.
    So these is becoming increasingly clear to be a mission of futility.
    Do you think you will trip me up to question my faith or deny God? I know I will not convince you there is a God so why are we doing this?


    And 'evolution' knew this about us and wove it in. Don't you see a problem with that thinking?
    Evolution is spoken of as a living, thinking, genius. It is a word used by anti-God men who will worship anything except Him. Even a word that they throw up as the answer to everything their heart is clearly telling them is intelligent design.

    If he didn't say it then he is a bigger fraud then I realized. I was giving him credit for some integrity. So you believe, as Darwin did (and don't you dare deny this because it is the subheading of his book) that you evolved from apes and the negro species in Africa were savages evolved from apes and a lesser being (closer to animal) than whites?
    Those who believe in evolution are racists. Sorry but it is fact. That was the foundation of why people of color were enslaved and looked down upon and whites elevated to power.

    I've read plenty of retorts trying to argue that little nasty truth away but it is just semantics and attempts to cover up an ugly truth.

    Wow. You really need to do your own research with an open heart and mind and stop being a parrot of your teachers.

    LOL This just shows that you are not interested in an intelligent debate. If you think you just saying it isn't true is supposed to be the end of it and you win? Think again. If your responses don't improve, I won't be responding again.
     
  15. JoeFlux

    JoeFlux New Member

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    It's an interesting difference between religion and science.

    No scientist would say what you just said here. I do not rely on faith, but only on evidence. If you provided me evidence that my understanding was wrong, I would change my understanding.

    This is completely wrong. But are you "strong in your faith" that evolution is wrong, such that nothing I can say will change your mind?

    Is it at least possible for me to convince you, with evidence and reason, that there is proof for evolution?

    It's easy to convince me. Simply provide evidence of a God. It's that easy. I change my mind based on evidence and reason

    No, evolution is not intelligent. Appreciation for beauty would come about as a result of random mutations which are then naturally selected for due to the offspring of animals that appreciate beauty surviving better than those that don't.

    Black people and white people are just as equally evolved from apes. What makes you think that black people are less evolved? Just because of the colour of their skin?
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
  16. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    Your personal beliefs? This worries me that you are relying on your personal beliefs about something as important as this.

    Do you believe God is just? The bible says God is just.
    God is Love but also just.

    What you believe makes Christ irrelevant.
    He died to save us from what exactly?
     
  17. JoeFlux

    JoeFlux New Member

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    The bible also says that God is merciful.

    Just and merciful are not compatible. You can't be both.
     
  18. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    God is the ultimate judge and a judge's punishment must the fit crime.

    Yet God has provided a way out. Showing His mercy.

    God is both merciful and just.
     
  19. JoeFlux

    JoeFlux New Member

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    That's contradictory. If he doesn't punish people for their crimes, then he's not just. As you said, the punishment must fit the crime. Letting people off and giving them no punishment is thus not just.
     
  20. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    I see. So if you stand before the judge guilty and yet someone has paid the debt in full in your behalf then its OK for him to still toss you in prison even though the debt has been fully paid?
     

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