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Matthew 12:40

rstrats

Getting Started
No, three. Friday, Saturday and Sunday.


Each calendar day has 2 night times when going by a midnight to midnight 24 hour day. So the 2nd night time of Friday was the first night, the 2 night times of Saturday were the second and third nights and the 1st night time of Sunday was the fourth night.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
No, three. Friday, Saturday and Sunday.


Each calendar day has 2 night times when going by a midnight to midnight 24 hour day. So the 2nd night time of Friday was the first night, the 2 night times of Saturday were the second and third nights and the 1st night time of Sunday was the fourth night.
If you want to be technical Saturday night is divided into two parts by the daytime. But Saturday only has one night. Why are you determined to disprove the Bible?
 

Heather Frank

Advanced Poster
Is this, like, an issue where we're supposed to be talking about how the Bible is spiritual and things happen in God's time rather than be splitting hares about how Jews, Romans, Greeks and others keep time and what the months and days are called? Because if the Bible says a certain thing happened at a certain time or over a certain time period, that might just mean that we're supposed to remember it in religious observances. I wonder how that effects studies like general and special relativity and that multiple dimensions multiple timelines stuff the people like Michio Kaku put around. One thing I do know, is that in spite of arguments over Sabbaths, Saturday and Sunday, the seven day week is is in effect pretty much everywhere, even though it isn't astronomical time like a year or a month or a day. How do people know that a week is seven days? And the BC AD division, from the time of the crucifixions and the resurrection, is in the same vein. There haven't always been apocalyptical prophecies, actually, and that's equally true in non Christian and non western cultures like that Aztec one for example. That seriously started and came out after the life of Christ, before that people looked forward to things getting better, including the Hebrew prophets who looked forward to the messiah saving them. So I think that what the big picture here is is not counting Earth rotations by Hebrew or Roman (Julian or Gregorian) time, although the Bible annotates the span. It's about spiritual changes in earth's history, right?
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
Forget about all this modern attempts to interpret God and the Bible as myth. You must understand the Bible in the historical time it was written under what customs. What the Bible says is historical is historical in the context of that time. What it says as prophetic was written in the context of that time. But it is still true and not subject to modern interpretation.

The Jews of that day operated both in the Hebrew religious context and the Roman secular context. Today, per the Bible, there are no sabbaths, feast and holy days because the Mosaic law was annulled.

Today we look at night as being Dusk to Dawn. We look at evening as being both evening and night. We look at morning as both night and sunrise to noon. There is no ironclad single meaning.
 

rstrats

Getting Started
If you want to be technical Saturday night is divided into two parts by the daytime.

Actually, it's not. The first night of Saturday is over and done with at sunrise. The second night of Saturday which starts at sunset is a completely new night.


Why are you determined to disprove the Bible?

What??? What have I written which causes you to ask such a question?
 

rstrats

Getting Started
Is this, like, an issue where we're supposed to be talking about how the Bible is spiritual and things happen in God's time rather than be splitting hares about how Jews, Romans, Greeks and others keep time and what the months and days are called?

No. This Topic is concerned with one issue and only one issue - the commonality of saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.
 

Heather Frank

Advanced Poster
Well how does that fit with the repetitions in Genesis One about how on each day of creation week "the evening and the morning" were the day? It sounds like the bible in on 24 hour time, counting each day as a complete Earth rotation, rather than dividing days into just the daylight, waking working hours and leaving the night time when most people sleep largely alone.
 

Heather Frank

Advanced Poster
Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a common Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone (who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" means the tomb) knows of any writing which shows a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights being used in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights?
Well, that's an issue in temporal physics, and it's become very confused for people since the times of Einstein. People have a hard time with space time relativity, and knowing all that is this huge giant snob thing, to the point where one of my astronomy books, in a discussion of the calculus needed to complete the course, lamented that in modern times, everyone knows all about Neils Bhor and Max Plank, but alas, no one knows their Newton. In other words, if you have a real PhD in Astrophysics like my friend Steve over at Bremerton who works for the Navy Yard, the "highest math" is still found in the works of Newton (specifically, you finish off with Integrals, which are for determining the total amount of change over an amount of a passage of time). All the rest in applied science (modernist) is just theoretical and something to do as a game in your spare time, that's were all those lousy New Math teachers with their folding game boards and three in one dice and all that junk come in.

So what were trying to do here is a definite integral. We want the total amount of time, with both the first and second derivatives, giving exact times for the bounds beginning and ending.

Since this is a religion word problem involving "peoples colloquialisms" Hebrew and Latin, with the two countries beginning and ending 24 hour days at different times, a definite integral is required. We will remember that God is transcendent of earthly time, and in Eternal, meaning that He exists outside of and above time, having created it. The creation record indicates certain things about how God marks time. First of all, "The Evening and the Morning were the First Day", and after the first day of creation, days were divided into night and day by the creation of the sun, moon, and stars.

So objectively, what we're doing here is determine the differential between Yiddish speech used in dating an event. If a person dates a memo, a newspaper, or a judicial decision, the person as a secretary states which day the event occurred on. This is not to be confused with a statement that the single event took the whole 24 hours.

Now properly and completely timelining the arrest, trial and crucifixion of Christ, as a biographer, would require dividing the times up minute by minute, noting the location, like the Garden of Gesthememe, Pilate's Court, and Golgotha, as some modern journalists have done, for example, with the World Trade Tower attacks on 9/11 in America recently.

Now what are we looking for here, total time of crucifixion, during which Jesus hung upon the cross, or time on the cross plus time in the tomb, or just time in the tomb?
 

rstrats

Getting Started
Now what are we looking for here, total time of crucifixion, during which Jesus hung upon the cross, or time on the cross plus time in the tomb, or just time in the tomb?

For the purpose of this topic, none of those. This topic is directed to anyone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period. I'm simply asking for actual examples which show that it was common to forecast or say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could be.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
If you want to be technical Saturday night is divided into two parts by the daytime.

Actually, it's not. The first night of Saturday is over and done with at sunrise. The second night of Saturday which starts at sunset is a completely new night.


Why are you determined to disprove the Bible?

What??? What have I written which causes you to ask such a question?
What nonsense. A night has two parts, morning before dawn and evening. A day has two parts, morning after dawn and afternoon.

I asked for the simple reason you are denying what the Bible says.
 

Heather Frank

Advanced Poster
In Hebrew time a day is sunset to sunset. The Hebrew time was used for religious purposes but the people in that day lived according to Roman time, which is midnight to midnight.

So by Roman time Christ was crucified and in the grave on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. I have no idea where he's getting this idea of only two nights. Friday evening is night time.

I will also note Roman Catholicism cannot be used in Bible study since even they admit they are not biblical Christians.
That's interesting. It's also a very well known fact. However, I would be interested to know, what is YOUR legal nationality? Are you a citizen of either Italy or Israel? Because personally, I live in the United States, which has it's own calendar, based on the Gregorian calendar instituted by post Constantinian Rome, with modern and local additions and variations, including the institution of modern time zones and Daylight savings time, which also go back to and build on the British institution of Greenwich Mean time, which sets the zero hour and reflex point of every day to London time, just as the romans (and officially by NIST standards) the United States sets each day as beginning at midnight as the previous day ends. SO what I'm saying is that in the modern present day English speaking Untied States, A day begins (in terms of world time) at midnight in London as the last day ends, and locally (meaning in your own city's local time zone) at midnight determined by astronomical calculation from your global coordinates. Now what are you doing here? Just a simple integral of time span, or do you mean to actually sole the common ashiest versus Christian age of the earth debate by placing your simple integral in a complete linear account of all of terrestrial time?
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
I am half Indian and half Scottish. The Scottish half has been here for over 200 years. The Indian half for millennia.

As for time references I worked in Naval intelligence, so the whole world was on Zulu time for us. We did not recognize time zones. As the following graphic illustrates any way you look at it there were three days and three nights. Gregorian time was not use then, it was the full realization of how the Romans looked at time prior.268
 

Heather Frank

Advanced Poster
Oh, I see. I've definitely heard of that problem before, there were some people who tried to work on a BC to AD timeline and they had a problem with the time seeming to go forward from creation (which they couldn't date without the Bible) but backward from the time of Christ. Also they had some kind of issue with there being no zero year in there, which sounds all Indo Algebraic to me, And it has a few frills on it in East vs West Greek Arithmetic or Arabic algebra as the proper math, which no one ever addresses except in hyper modernist Kurt Gödel, Gottleib Freege and Bertrand Russel land where everyone and their dog thinks that math was invented by some person instead of being discovered by natural scientists observing the solar system, marking time and counting rocks or measuring fields. Are you saying you refer your timing to the Daniel's dream prophecies, accepting the Hebrew Old Testament timeline at face value? because I'm sure that works, the 79 weeks prophecy belongs to Daniel, and the statue dream is also true, even though it went to the Babylonian king first. In fact, part of the story is illustrative of how you cant just change time and present or future events that God predicted, by making some kind of secular decree, building a statue, playing acid jazz and throwing your slaves to hungry lions.

You did the Hebrew calendar and put it on a parallel timeline with the Roman one? Good for you, that's a lot of work. I've seen that before, the JWs still try to keep church observances by Hebrew time. Well, that's them, and as their translation points out, they all live in the New World, not the old one with the yearly liturgy of saints days and high holy days remembering events in the life of Christ.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
Oh, I see. I've definitely heard of that problem before, there were some people who tried to work on a BC to AD timeline and they had a problem with the time seeming to go forward from creation (which they couldn't date without the Bible) but backward from the time of Christ. Also they had some kind of issue with there being no zero year in there, which sounds all Indo Algebraic to me, And it has a few frills on it in East vs West Greek Arithmetic or Arabic algebra as the proper math, which no one ever addresses except in hyper modernist Kurt Gödel, Gottleib Freege and Bertrand Russel land where everyone and their dog thinks that math was invented by some person instead of being discovered by natural scientists observing the solar system, marking time and counting rocks or measuring fields. Are you saying you refer your timing to the Daniel's dream prophecies, accepting the Hebrew Old Testament timeline at face value? because I'm sure that works, the 79 weeks prophecy belongs to Daniel, and the statue dream is also true, even though it went to the Babylonian king first. In fact, part of the story is illustrative of how you cant just change time and present or future events that God predicted, by making some kind of secular decree, building a statue, playing acid jazz and throwing your slaves to hungry lions.

You did the Hebrew calendar and put it on a parallel timeline with the Roman one? Good for you, that's a lot of work. I've seen that before, the JWs still try to keep church observances by Hebrew time. Well, that's them, and as their translation points out, they all live in the New World, not the old one with the yearly liturgy of saints days and high holy days remembering events in the life of Christ.
The Hebrew timekeeping was very complicated and accurate, even including leap components to adjust for time drift. Even Revelation is per Hebrew time. 360 days to a year, 42 months is 3 1/2 years, as is 1260 days. A day can mean 24 hours or it can mean a distinct period of time. The generation can mean the lifetime of a group of people or a time of sameness. A week of days is seven years. Try to read the Bible in today's terms and you will fail.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
What nonsense.

I agree. It's nonsense to say that a night has 2 parts.

You also wrote: "I asked for the simple reason you are denying what the Bible says".


What Bible saying is it that you think I am denying?
Look at the chart, it clearly shows a single a day as 24 hours with two periods of night. But still only one day.

You deny three days and three nights in the Tomb.
 

rstrats

Getting Started
CoreIssue,
re: "Look at the chart, it clearly shows a single a day as 24 hours with two periods of night. But still only one day."

That is correct - one calendar day with two night times and one daytime. But that is only when using a midnight to midnight calendar day.

re: "You deny three days and three nights in the Tomb."

What??? Where have I said that?
 
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