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Roman Catholicism

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
I fully understand that Catholicism is considered the largest Christian denomination in the world. But is it? Or is it the largest Christian Cult in the world?

Right up front I need to make it clear there are some born-again in the Catholic Church. But, they are not considered "good Catholics" because they do not accept or question many of the teachings of the RCC. Most do end up leaving the denomination.

The RCC is ancient Roman Paganism in a Christian cloak. Their garb is the garb of the ancient Roman Pontifex Maximus and College of Pontiffs The Pope and Cardinals are from the ancient offices of ancient Roman religion.

The ancient Romans, when they conquered a new area, would absorb the local religions into their system. The RCC continues that practice by absorbing believes and practices into the RCC. That is how they got their Saints, Mary, prayer beads, holy water and more.

Looking at the definition of a Christian Cult, here are the reasons the RCC qualifies:
Denial of the Trinity, meaning the absolute equality, power, knowledge and omnipresence of the three distinct united persons of the Godhead.
Mary has been promoted to Queen of Heaven and Mother of God. She is also of virgin birth. That makes her a god as well. These claims do not exist in the Bible and Christ rejected giving her an elevated status in the Bible.

Where did this come from? The RCC absorbing the religions that practiced goddess worship.

As well, in the ancient Roman religion, they had the god of this, that and the other. Substitute "saint" for "god" and you have the RCC.

So, then Roman religion had a pantheon of gods and the RCC has their own pantheon of gods, including Mary, Saints and even angels.

They also have demi-gods, their priests, who have the power to forgive sins on Christ's behalf.

Problem is the Bible says have no other gods, only God can forgive sins and there is only one intercessor, Jesus Christ.
Denies salvation is via grace alone by faith in Christ via his substitutionary death and resurrection. There is no other way.
In the RCC salvation is not by grace alone, but by works. There are, in example, 7 mandatory sacraments to be saved.

At the beginning of the RCC, which was centuries after Christ, there were no sacraments. Then the number increased over time to over double what there is today. Then it decreased to the current 7.

The RCC concept of sacraments does not exist in the Bible. The Bible says it is by grace alone through faith in Christ, the Biblical Christ.

Good works are the result of salvation, not the cause of salvation, per the Bible

No man on this earth has the power to define salvation for God or forgive sins. The Bible lays it out very clearly, so there is no excuse for believing anything else.

There is no way around it, the RCC is a cult. Strict adherence to their beliefs will put a person in Hell.
 

roman8

Advanced Poster
The Roman Catholic church is not christian, they never were. There may be those that are mislead and still stay , but they cannot read the word of God or they would leave. I have a friend who will not leave the RCC, our relationship is now very strained and she is angered easily by anyone telling her that the RCC is not christian. She is choosing to stay and not investigate the things she has been told. She claims to read the bible , but yet the layer of dust on it tells me she is not. The RCC appeals to the flesh, with the rituals and ornate decorations and the works. It does create a feeling , she claims she feels Gods presence there. I believe many feel that way.
 

Willy

Pro Poster
RCC does not hold the Bible as the final Word of God to lost man. In that they make a grave error.

Have had many RCC friends over the years. One very early on was saved by reading over and over Galatians 2:21 "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

That one verse broke down the "wall of works" that RCC had built around that dear woman.

Most of my other RCC friends seem intoxicated with the mystical. Whereas I would like to talk about The Lord Jesus and what He accomplished on the Cross, they would like to talk about the ghost of their dead sister that they saw in a farmhouse window when they were a kid (or something along the same lines) ...

Hmm ... just noticed the pattern on my toast looks a little like ... :wow:
 

Mungo

Getting Started
At first read you would appear to have given arguments as to why you disagree with the Catholic Church. However when this is examined more closely it is 99% personal opinions backed up by no evidence.

Let me show you :

I fully understand that Catholicism is considered the largest Christian denomination in the world. But is it? Or is it the largest Christian Cult in the world?

Right up front I need to make it clear there are some born-again in the Catholic Church. But, they are not considered "good Catholics" because they do not accept or question many of the teachings of the RCC. Most do end up leaving the denomination.
A personal opinion given without any evidence.

The RCC is ancient Roman Paganism in a Christian cloak. Their garb is the garb of the ancient Roman Pontifex Maximus and College of Pontiffs The Pope and Cardinals are from the ancient offices of ancient Roman religion.
A personal opinion given without any evidence.

The ancient Romans, when they conquered a new area, would absorb the local religions into their system. The RCC continues that practice by absorbing believes and practices into the RCC. That is how they got their Saints, Mary, prayer beads, holy water and more.
A personal opinion given without any evidence.

Looking at the definition of a Christian Cult, here are the reasons the RCC qualifies:

Denial of the Trinity, meaning the absolute equality, power, knowledge and omnipresence of the three distinct united persons of the Godhead.

The Catholic Church does not deny the Trinity. It full subscribes to the Nicene Creed (as amended at the Council of Constantinople in 381 + the Filioque clause) that most Protestant groups adhere to.


Mary has been promoted to Queen of Heaven and Mother of God..
God promoted Mary to Queen of Heaven and Mother of God.

She is also of virgin birth.
The Catholic Church does not teach Mary is of virgin birth.

That makes her a god as well
Why would Mary being titled Queen of Heaven and Mother of God make her a god?

These claims do not exist in the Bible and Christ rejected giving her an elevated status in the Bible.
A personal opinion given without any evidence.

Where did this come from? The RCC absorbing the religions that practiced goddess worship.
A personal opinion given without any evidence.

As well, in the ancient Roman religion, they had the god of this, that and the other. Substitute "saint" for "god" and you have the RCC.
Why substitute “saint” for “god”? You give no good reason. There is no logic there.

So, then Roman religion had a pantheon of gods and the RCC has their own pantheon of gods, including Mary, Saints and even angels.
The claim “the RCC has their own pantheon of gods, including Mary, Saints and even angels” is a personal opinion given without any evidence.

They also have demi-gods, their priests,
A personal opinion given without any evidence.

who have the power to forgive sins on Christ's behalf.
Biblical – John 20:23

Problem is the Bible says have no other gods
We do not have other gods.

only God can forgive sins.
Ultimately yes, but God works through men and he can delegate that authority to men – Jn 20:23.

and there is only one intercessor, Jesus Christ
A personal opinion given without any evidence.

Denies salvation is via grace alone by faith in Christ via his substitutionary death and resurrection. There is no other way.
Leave out the word substitutionary and the Catholic Church teaches exactly that (i.e. salvation is via grace alone by faith in Christ via his death and resurrection)

In the RCC salvation is not by grace alone, but by works.
A personal opinion given without any evidence.

There are, in example, 7 mandatory sacraments to be saved.
A personal opinion given without any evidence.

At the beginning of the RCC, which was centuries after Christ, there were no sacraments. Then the number increased over time to over double what there is today. Then it decreased to the current 7.
A personal opinion given without any evidence.

The RCC concept of sacraments does not exist in the Bible. The Bible says it is by grace alone through faith in Christ, the Biblical Christ.
The concept of sacraments does exist in the Bible. I think you do not understand what sacraments are.

And yes, the Catholic Church teaches we are saved by grace alone through faith in Christ.

“Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” (my emboldening)
(Council of Trent, Session 6, chapter VI)

Good works are the result of salvation, not the cause of salvation, per the Bible
Agreed

No man on this earth has the power to define salvation for God
Agreed

or forgive sins.
Unless God gives him the authority – Jn 20:23

The Bible lays it out very clearly, so there is no excuse for believing anything else.
No Catholic doctrine contradicts scripture and no scripture contradicts Catholic doctrine. The proviso is that scripture is properly interpreted.

There is no way around it, the RCC is a cult. Strict adherence to their beliefs will put a person in Hell.
Just plain wrong.

I realise that some of my responses are my opinion given without evidence but as you made the initial claims I think the ball is in your court to provide scriptural and historical evidence to back up your opinions first.

You said in Is Catholicism a Cult - "I strongly suggest one key topic at a time for clarity." I think that is a good suggestion.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
I fully understand that Catholicism is considered the largest Christian denomination in the world. But is it? Or is it the largest Christian Cult in the world?

Right up front I need to make it clear there are some born-again in the Catholic Church. But, they are not considered "good Catholics" because they do not accept or question many of the teachings of the RCC. Most do end up leaving the denomination.
A personal opinion given without any evidence.
Besides the Catholics I personally know who left after studying the Bible, read here.

That is evidence, not personal opinion.
The RCC is ancient Roman Paganism in a Christian cloak. Their garb is the garb of the ancient Roman Pontifex Maximus and College of Pontiffs The Pope and Cardinals are from the ancient offices of ancient Roman religion.
A personal opinion given without any evidence.
Pope

The College of Cardinals is the adaption of the College of Pontiffs of Pagan Rome

The College of Pontiffs each represented a religion absorbed into the the Empire. When the RCC rose to was appointed the Church of the Roman Empire by the Emporer's decree, centuries after Christ, the RCC did its version of inclusing by absorbing Pagan practices and beliefs. Among those are holy water, Marionology, saints (demi-gods). prayer beads and more.

The Pope's eagle was a adaption of the Roman Legions Eagle gods.
The ancient Romans, when they conquered a new area, would absorb the local religions into their system. The RCC continues that practice by absorbing believes and practices into the RCC. That is how they got their Saints, Mary, prayer beads, holy water and more.
A personal opinion given without any evidence.
Mary
The Bible makes it quite clear after Jesus was born Mary had sex and bore orther children.

There is no mention of "Queen of Heaven," etc. in the Bible.

That is one example. If you wish to try to justify any of the above practices, Biblically, show me.

Peter was not the first Pope and it was never said the Church was built upon him and he was appointed leader.
Looking at the definition of a Christian Cult, here are the reasons the RCC qualifies:

Denial of the Trinity, meaning the absolute equality, power, knowledge and omnipresence of the three distinct united persons of the Godhead.
The Catholic Church does not deny the Trinity. It full subscribes to the Nicene Creed (as amended at the Council of Constantinople in 381 + the Filioque clause) that most Protestant groups adhere to.
No response since you did not give the full quote.
Mary has been promoted to Queen of Heaven and Mother of God..
God promoted Mary to Queen of Heaven and Mother of God.
Says who? The RCC? The Bible does not.
She is also of virgin birth.
The Catholic Church does not teach Mary is of virgin birth.
There are Catholic theologans who do.
That makes her a god as well
Why would Mary being titled Queen of Heaven and Mother of God make her a god?
Because she has been given the power to forgive sins and more, something only Christ can do.
These claims do not exist in the Bible and Christ rejected giving her an elevated status in the Bible.
A personal opinion given without any evidence.
No, scriptural.

If you wish to argue that point provide the verses.
Where did this come from? The RCC absorbing the religions that practiced goddess worship.
A personal opinion given without any evidence.
No, documented history.
As well, in the ancient Roman religion, they had the god of this, that and the other. Substitute "saint" for "god" and you have the RCC.
Why substitute “saint” for “god”? You give no good reason. There is no logic there.
Yes, there is. That give the RCC to power to elevate people.

Fact is the Bible teaches all born again Christians are saints. Saint does not mean elevated, it means set apart for God, which is what salvation does.
So, then Roman religion had a pantheon of gods and the RCC has their own pantheon of gods, including Mary, Saints and even angels.
The claim “the RCC has their own pantheon of gods, including Mary, Saints and even angels” is a personal opinion given without any evidence.
Just like with the Roman Pagan religions, saints are the saint of this, that and the other. Mary is now Queen of Heaven.
They also have demi-gods, their priests,
A personal opinion given without any evidence.
There is no special priesthood in the NT Body of Christ. Only Christ can forgive sins.

The RCC hierarchy does not exist in the Bible.
who have the power to forgive sins on Christ's behalf.
Biblical – John 20:23
When the Disciples died, no one replaced them in their roles. The answered to no Pope.

There is no command in the NT for any church to obey any particular elite group of men. No priesthood. No universal church structure.

It was all local churches with local leaders chosen by the local congregations.

There is no mention of anyone in the NT ask for sin to be forgiven by them or them forgiving anyone's sin. But, there are verses dealing with the how, when and why to forgive those who sin against you personally.

The Bible always harmonizes. Nothing in it harmonizes with the RCC on these issues.
Problem is the Bible says have no other gods
We do not have other gods.
You do. You pray to and worship Mary, in example.
only God can forgive sins.
Ultimately yes, but God works through men and he can delegate that authority to men – Jn 20:23.
Yes, God works through men, but not as you are implying or RCC theology teaches.
and there is only one intercessor, Jesus Christ
A personal opinion given without any evidence.
Here is your proof.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
Denies salvation is via grace alone by faith in Christ via his substitutionary death and resurrection. There is no other way.
Leave out the word substitutionary and the Catholic Church teaches exactly that (i.e. salvation is via grace alone by faith in Christ via his death and resurrection)
You cannot leave the word out. The Bible states it.

As well, the RCC says grace allows the works that save. The Bible says there is no salvation by works. That works result from salvation, but do not give salvation
In the RCC salvation is not by grace alone, but by works.
A personal opinion given without any evidence.
Nope, Biblical.
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Ephesians 2:8-9
There are, in example, 7 mandatory sacraments to be saved.
A personal opinion given without any evidence.
Surprising you would even try to say that.
At the beginning of the RCC, which was centuries after Christ, there were no sacraments. Then the number increased over time to over double what there is today. Then it decreased to the current 7.
A personal opinion given without any evidence.
Nope, history.
The RCC concept of sacraments does not exist in the Bible. The Bible says it is by grace alone through faith in Christ, the Biblical Christ.
The concept of sacraments does exist in the Bible. I think you do not understand what sacraments are.
I do understand. They are works demanded by the RCC.
And yes, the Catholic Church teaches we are saved by grace alone through faith in Christ.

“Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” (my emboldening)
(Council of Trent, Session 6, chapter VI)
Already answered.

Good works are the result of salvation, not the cause of salvation, per the Bible
Agreed
Already answered.

If the RCC truly believed what the Bible says, there would be no confessionals, no teaching of penance and no teaching of purgatory.

No man on this earth has the power to define salvation for God
Agreed

or forgive sins.
Unless God gives him the authority – Jn 20:23
The verse does not say what you claim.
The Bible lays it out very clearly, so there is no excuse for believing anything else.
No Catholic doctrine contradicts scripture and no scripture contradicts Catholic doctrine. The proviso is that scripture is properly interpreted.
Already cited so many things the RCC practices that does not exist in the Bible.

Even modern RCC linguists concede it was erroneous to claim the Bible say the Church was built on Peter. But, for them, transition, etc, is more meaningful than the Bible.

It is obvious you are not a Bible student, but a student of RCC theology.
There is no way around it, the RCC is a cult. Strict adherence to their beliefs will put a person in Hell.
Just plain wrong.
Your opinion not backed by facts.

I realise that some of my responses are my opinion given without evidence but as you made the initial claims I think the ball is in your court to provide scriptural and historical evidence to back up your opinions first.
I did. Now, your turn.
 

Mungo

Getting Started
I haven't got much time left so I will answer a many as I can and leave the rest until I return

I fully understand that Catholicism is considered the largest Christian denomination in the world. But is it? Or is it the largest Christian Cult in the world?

Right up front I need to make it clear there are some born-again in the Catholic Church. But, they are not considered "good Catholics" because they do not accept or question many of the teachings of the RCC. Most do end up leaving the denomination.
A personal opinion given without any evidence.
Besides the Catholics I personally know who left after studying the Bible, read here.

That is evidence, not personal opinion.
In the list of Reasons for leaving Catholicism there are 20 reasons listed. Not one of them is that they left after studying the Bible

The RCC is ancient Roman Paganism in a Christian cloak. Their garb is the garb of the ancient Roman Pontifex Maximus and College of Pontiffs The Pope and Cardinals are from the ancient offices of ancient Roman religion.

A personal opinion given without any evidence.


Pope


The College of Cardinals is the adaption of the College of Pontiffs of Pagan Rome
Yes, I know what Wikipedia says. What you give no evidence for is your claim "The RCC is ancient Roman Paganism in a Christian cloak. Their garb is the garb of the ancient Roman Pontifex Maximus and College of Pontiffs The Pope and Cardinals are from the ancient offices of ancient Roman religion. " That is pure suppositionn on your part.

The College of Pontiffs each represented a religion absorbed into the the Empire. When the RCC rose to was appointed the Church of the Roman Empire by the Emporer's decree, centuries after Christ, the RCC did its version of inclusing by absorbing Pagan practices and beliefs. Among those are holy water, Marionology, saints (demi-gods). prayer beads and more.
Again that is just your opinion. You provide no evidence

The Pope's eagle was a adaption of the Roman Legions Eagle gods.
What Pope's eagle?

The ancient Romans, when they conquered a new area, would absorb the local religions into their system. The RCC continues that practice by absorbing believes and practices into the RCC. That is how they got their Saints, Mary, prayer beads, holy water and more.

A personal opinion given without any evidence.

Mary
The Bible makes it quite clear after Jesus was born Mary had sex and bore orther children.
If it did you would be able to give a passage. But you haven't

There is no mention of "Queen of Heaven," etc. in the Bible.
As I'm short of time I'll spare you the long version. Here is the short one:
Jesus is the King of Heaven (Rev 19:11-16)
Mary is Jesus' mother & in the Davidic Kingdom the Queen is the mother of the King.
Therefore Mary is the Queen of Heaven

Holy Water - "And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel...." (Num 5:17, KJV)

Peter was not the first Pope and it was never said the Church was built upon him and he was appointed leader.
Yes he was and Jesus said Peter was the rock (Kephas) on which he would build his Church. (Mt 16:18)

Looking at the definition of a Christian Cult, here are the reasons the RCC qualifies:

Denial of the Trinity, meaning the absolute equality, power, knowledge and omnipresence of the three distinct united persons of the Godhead.
The Catholic Church does not deny the Trinity. It full subscribes to the Nicene Creed (as amended at the Council of Constantinople in 381 + the Filioque clause) that most Protestant groups adhere to.

No response since you did not give the full quote.
I gave the exact quote you gave in your OP


Mary has been promoted to Queen of Heaven and Mother of God..

God promoted Mary to Queen of Heaven and Mother of God.

Says who? The RCC? The Bible does not.
God made Mary the mother of Jesus
Jesus is God
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.

See earlier for Queen of Heaven

]
She is also of virgin birth.

The Catholic Church does not teach Mary is of virgin birth.

There are Catholic theologans who do.
Evidence please.

That makes her a god as well

Why would Mary being titled Queen of Heaven and Mother of God make her a god?

Because she has been given the power to forgive sins and more, something only Christ can do.
Evidence please.


These claims do not exist in the Bible and Christ rejected giving her an elevated status in the Bible.

A personal opinion given without any evidence.

No, scriptural.
Evidence please.


If you wish to argue that point provide the verses.[
Ahem!!! You made the claim. You provide the evidence.

Where did this come from? The RCC absorbing the religions that practiced goddess worship.

A personal opinion given without any evidence.

No, documented history.
Evidence please


As well, in the ancient Roman religion, they had the god of this, that and the other. Substitute "saint" for "god" and you have the RCC.
Why substitute “saint” for “god”? You give no good reason. There is no logic there.

Yes, there is. That give the RCC to power to elevate people.

Fact is the Bible teaches all born again Christians are saints. Saint does not mean elevated, it means set apart for God, which is what salvation does.
Agreed all born again Christians are saints.

Catholics believe the Church exists in three states, those on earth, those in heaven and those in purgatory. All are part of the one body of Christ (Rom 12:4-5) and with Christ as the head are linked together. We are not separated by death (Rom 8:35-39)

This is expressed in the phrase in the Apostles Creed – the communion of saints.

Whilst all who are part of the body of Christ are saints, the Church has discerned that some are particularly worthy as examples or role models for us. We call these Canonised Saints or just Saints with a capitalised ‘S’. They are not gods but humans in heaven whose examples of those who race the race and received the crown (1 Cor 9:24-27) and from whose lives and writing we can learn something (cf 2Thess 3:7&9; Heb 13:7; 1Tim 4:12)

So, then Roman religion had a pantheon of gods and the RCC has their own pantheon of gods, including Mary, Saints and even angels.

The claim “the RCC has their own pantheon of gods, including Mary, Saints and even angels” is a personal opinion given without any evidence.

Just like with the Roman Pagan religions, saints are the saint of this, that and the other. Mary is now Queen of Heaven.
Just repeating your personal opinion withouit evidence does not make it true

They also have demi-gods, their priests,

A personal opinion given without any evidence.

There is no special priesthood in the NT Body of Christ.
In your personal opinion

Only Christ can forgive sins.
And those to whom he gives the authority to do so - Jn 20:23

The RCC hierarchy does not exist in the Bible.

Yes it does:At the beginning there were only apostles. Very quickly we find two other groups coming into being – Elders and Deacons

Deacons (diakonos) were appointed in Acts 6. In 1Tim 3 Paul gives instructions about the type of person to be appointed a deacon.

Early on elders must have been appointed because when Paul went to Jerusalem in Acts 15 there were apostles and elders (presbuteros). It may well be that the elders in Acts 15 were appointed by Jesus. It is from the Greek for elder – presbuteros – that the word priest comes

Now all apostles were elders (priests) but not all elders were apostles. That is why Peter could say (although he was an apostle) that he was an elder himself.

It is clear that apostles had greater authority than elders.

The successors of the apostles were the episkopoi, the overseers, also known as bishops.

In Acts 1 Matthias is elected to take the place of Judas as an apostles “the lot fell on Matthias; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles” ( Acts 1:26)

Previous to that Peter had quoted from Psalm 109 “'His office let another take.” The KJV translates that as “and his bishopric let another take”, bishoprick being a translation of episkopen (Strong G1984)

G1984: From G1980; inspection (for relief); by implication superintendence; specifically the Christian “episcopate”:—the office of a “bishop”, bishoprick, visitation.

Thus we see Matthias given the office and authority of bishop along with the other 11 apostles.

It is also clear that this authority of an apostle was transferable to those they appointed to oversee others (to be bishops). We can see this in the instructions Paul gave to Timothy about selecting bishops and laying hands on people (ordination). Paul does to some extent interchange using the term presbuteros and episkopoi but we must remember that all episkopoi were presbyters as well. It is also clear that Paul appointed Timothy and Titus as overseers in Ephesus and Crete respectively.

Ignatius of Antioch.
Ignatius was the bishop of Antioch, one of the most important Christian centres in the early centuries. It was at Antioch that disciples were first called Christians (Acts 11:26). It was from Antioch that Paul set out on his three great missionary journeys.

Ignatius was martyred in Rome in about 107-110 AD. According to the Church historian Eusebius we was a bishop for 40 years so he was a bishop when some of the apostles were still alive to after the death of the last of them. His witness is therefore a valuable record of the Church during that time. On his way overland to Rome to be martyred he met up with groups from local churches and wrote letters to those churches, as well as to his friend Polycarp (who was a disciple of John). These were written about 75 years after the death of Jesus

He has a lot to say about bishops and the structure of the church.

Bishops…..
Do nothing without the bishop (Letter to the Philadephians, 7)

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father (letter to the Smyrneans, 8)

…Presbyters and Deacons
"Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles, and with the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the business of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father from the beginning and is at last made manifest" (Letter to the Magnesians, 6).

Give heed to the bishop, that God also may give heed to you. My soul be for theirs that are submissive to the bishop, to the presbyters, and to the deacons (Letter to Polycarp, 6)


For, since you are subject to the bishop as to Jesus Christ….. It is therefore necessary that, as you indeed do, so without the bishop you should do nothing, but should also be subject to the presbytery, as to the apostle of Jesus Christ, ……It is fitting also that the deacons, as being [the ministers] of the mysteries of Jesus Christ, should in every respect be pleasing to all. For they are not ministers of meat and drink, but servants of the Church of God.
(Letter to the Trallians, 2)

We can see that there are three established groups in the leadership of the local churches – bishop, presbyters and deacons, in that order of hierarchy.

Can I make the point, if you haven't grasped it already, that you are presenting no evidence for your claims.

Also note that you make claims about the Bible but have given not a single Biblical reference!

I'm out of time.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
You need to actually read the whole article where not agreeing with the Bible was stated as a reeason for 18% leaving.

Also, all of those positions you listed were for local churches only. I repeat, no universal hierarchy for all churches can be found in the Bible. There is no Pope, no Cardinals, etc

The Roman Catholic Church was a political creation centuries later. It did not exist at the time of the Apostles.

You are already just repeating yourself.And you are asking me to given negative proof claims to prove the RCC didn't exist, along with other of your false claims.

A negative proof claim is saying something was not said hence it was true. A negative demand is demanding Biblical proof something is not in the Bible.

The fact it cannot be found in the Bible is proof

I repeat, there is no leadership role above local in the Bible, but there are many local churches mentioned. Nor is there any Pope etc.

You are trying to prove the authority and authorization of roles never mentioned. And their powers..

Time to focus down to one thread on one topic. Go with the salvation one. If you cannot prove your case the rest falls apart on its own.
 

Mungo

Getting Started
The Roman Catholic Church was a political creation centuries later. It did not exist at the time of the Apostles.
You see - another personal opinion without evidence.

Sorry - you don't like personal opinion. Let's say it is an "assertion without evidence", but remember the maxim: "That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
OK, I see you have started yet another thread. So let us focus in it, not multiple threads.
 

Mungo

Getting Started
OK, I see you have started yet another thread. So let us focus in it, not multiple threads.

Yes,

there is no point in continuing this one as you refuse to provide evidence for your assertions and reply to the points I make.

But will it be any better under the new thread?

BTW - I am involved in a family crisis and will have to go away again on Tuesday for a few days (now Sunday evening UK time). But I will reply while I can and come back to the topic later.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
Sigh, I was trying to be polite and not point out your false accusations and misleading statements..

I also see you cherry picked definitions and usages that you use to try to prove your claims.

Well, here is from a site that is not real friendly to Christianity in general. They do not support your claims about or your selective postings.

Now, please, let us move on to a more provable discussion on salvation.

Sorry to hear about the family issues. Take care.
 

Mungo

Getting Started
Sigh, I was trying to be polite and not point out your false accusations and misleading statements..

I also see you cherry picked definitions and usages that you use to try to prove your claims.

Well, here is from a site that is not real friendly to Christianity in general. They do not support your claims about or your selective postings.

Now, please, let us move on to a more provable discussion on salvation.

Sorry to hear about the family issues. Take care.
Look! It's your own links that are proving you false.

The site you link to fails to support your claim and clearly classes the Catholic Church as a Denomination not a cult.

As I said in the other thread, nowhere does it give a definition that would include the Catholic Church. In fact it includes the Catholic Church under
Meaning of the word "denomination:"
Here is the whole quote:

Meaning of the word "denomination:"
A Denomination is an established religious group, which has usually been in existence for many years and has geographically widespread membership. It typically unites a group of individual congregations into a single administrative body. Denominations differ greatly in the sharing of power between individual congregations and the central authority. Baptist churches have historically allowed individual churches to hold diverse beliefs. (An exception is the Southern Baptists Convention who reversed centuries of tradition and expelled some congregations over their treatment of homosexuals.) Other denominations, like the Roman Catholic Church, centralize authority, and allow congregations little freedom to deviate in beliefs, practices, or policies.


It also says:
We have seen "cult" used to refer to Evangelical denominations, the Roman Catholic Church, Unification Church, Church of Scientology, United Church of Christ, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Wiccans, other Neopagans and many other faith groups. The term is essentially meaningless.[/QUOTE}
(my emboldening)
 

rstrats

Getting Started
Mungo,
re: "Mary is Jesus' mother & in the Davidic Kingdom the Queen is the mother of the King. Therefore Mary is the Queen of Heaven"


If anyone is to be the queen, wouldn't it be the bride/wife of the Messiah (Rev 21:9)?
 
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CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
Making anyone queen places them on level with God.

David had wives, none were queens.

That is why there is not nor ever will be a queen.
 

Mungo

Getting Started
Mungo,
re: "Mary is Jesus' mother & in the Davidic Kingdom the Queen is the mother of the King. Therefore Mary is the Queen of Heaven"


If anyone is to be the queen, wouldn't it be the bride/wife of the Messiah (Rev 21:9)?

If you read the history of the Davidic kingdom in the OT you will see that it is the mother of the king who is queen.
 

Mungo

Getting Started
Just post the verses.

Further, it has nothing to do with Mary.
You haven't answered my question as to why making someone queen puts them on the same level with God.

Let me help you out a bit on this. It doesn't.

In Britain where I live we have a monarchy. It's only a constitutional monarchy now but once the monarch (king or queen) had real power. The spouse of the Monarch didn't have any such power. Being the queen of a king, who was the monarch, did not put her on the same level with the king. She had whatever authority (if any) the king chose to give her.

At the moment we have a queen. Her spouse (Prince Philip) has no constitutional authority.

Mary, as Queen of heaven, is not on the same level as God.

Yes it has something to do with Mary as she is the mother of the King!
 
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