- Revelation 7:4-8 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand (144,000) of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
Jews during the tribulations
- Thread starter Betty52
- Start date
formaTionaTion
New Member
Some people may consider that Revelation 7:4-8 is referring to a timeline of specific individuals who are choses out of the 12 tribes of Israel
and other may consider or believe that this is a tally of individuals in the times of the last days whom are alive as chosen to be sealed.
I do have questions about the passage here specifically because i wonder from what time line are these 144,000 individuals, meaning is this a tally of specific individuals going back in time as throughout a timeline, people from the past ? ?
i honestly believe that this is a tally of individuals who had lived in the past because mainly here in the passage it mentions the 12 tribes of Israel but today the 12 tribes of Israel do not exist as tribes any longer and this has been so for the last 2000 years -
i do not believe that the people of Israel today consist of tribes, they are not separated groups but they all have mingled together and have completely lost their tribal genetics. One thing that is very important about a " TRIBE " is the fact that they are very incestious and even very polygamous. It is these two main features that will establish a tribe of people that separate them from all others around them.
the Marriage of brothers and sisters, marriage of cousins and even aunts and uncles marrying one another within the families that branch outward into a genetic tribe of people who are all very closely related. Today, there are no tribes of people living on earth who are practicing incest and polygamy on a tribal scale to preserve their tribe. Even Native American Indian tribes are branching outward and intermarrying with other races of people from around the world.
For Revelation 7:4-8 to be about tribes of Israel would not this have to be referring to people of the past ?
and other may consider or believe that this is a tally of individuals in the times of the last days whom are alive as chosen to be sealed.
I do have questions about the passage here specifically because i wonder from what time line are these 144,000 individuals, meaning is this a tally of specific individuals going back in time as throughout a timeline, people from the past ? ?
i honestly believe that this is a tally of individuals who had lived in the past because mainly here in the passage it mentions the 12 tribes of Israel but today the 12 tribes of Israel do not exist as tribes any longer and this has been so for the last 2000 years -
i do not believe that the people of Israel today consist of tribes, they are not separated groups but they all have mingled together and have completely lost their tribal genetics. One thing that is very important about a " TRIBE " is the fact that they are very incestious and even very polygamous. It is these two main features that will establish a tribe of people that separate them from all others around them.
the Marriage of brothers and sisters, marriage of cousins and even aunts and uncles marrying one another within the families that branch outward into a genetic tribe of people who are all very closely related. Today, there are no tribes of people living on earth who are practicing incest and polygamy on a tribal scale to preserve their tribe. Even Native American Indian tribes are branching outward and intermarrying with other races of people from around the world.
For Revelation 7:4-8 to be about tribes of Israel would not this have to be referring to people of the past ?
formaTionaTion
New Member
i understand what you are saying , Corelssues
one thing though, based on your reply and what you have written, would you perhaps conclude to safely saying that this is more than likely the restoration of the 12 tribes in the realm of heaven and not a restoration of the tribes here on earth ?
one thing though, based on your reply and what you have written, would you perhaps conclude to safely saying that this is more than likely the restoration of the 12 tribes in the realm of heaven and not a restoration of the tribes here on earth ?
formaTionaTion
New Member
are you are saying that - in other words although the Jews today who are presently gathered in Israel, they , may not know themselves what tribes they belong to, but God knows and he will gather 144,000 Jews together and they will be the chosen 12,000 from each tribe ?
and these chosen 144,000 will chosen from Israel in the coming future ?
when I read the scripture, this idea that you propose as clearly laid i am unable to find anything mentioning this as a clear descriptive plan, as far as I can see, perhaps you could expound and explain ?
I truly believe that the 144,000 Hebrews chosen in - " Rev 7: 4-8 "
are the very same 144,000 Hebrew individuals that are mentioned in - Rev Chap - 14:
14 : 2 And I heard a voice from heaven............. the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne .......... the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
:4 These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth
the 144,000 virgins follow the Lamb, as servants, wherever the Lamb goes or moves - they are chosen to learn and sing and play musical instruments and sing a song to the Lamb......
one thing that i see further down in chapter :13
:13 - And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
i think we both would agree that these 144,000 have died but i am still not sure if you agree
perhaps you believe that they are in the rapture - Jews whom are in the rapture ?
I believe that these, Jewish Females / VIRGINS \ , are already died and will be all gathered out of the earth from the past to present to even the future """ as " dead "
and have risen in the resurrection and been gathered to heaven - and the exact specific time of their death is not really made clear
we disagree about the time period of them being gathered and we disagree about the the sex / gender of the 144,000 - i believe they are women, females - virgins ..
in conclusion, we see, verse :13 - just below,
Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
formaTionaTion
New Member
When we read Rev 14:4 from the Greek Manuscripts, we can clearly see exactly the exact message of the authors.
Here is the exact word for word translation.
Rev 14:4 ουτοι these - εισιν are - οι whom - μετα among - γυναικων women - ουκ not - εμολυνθησαν are defiled, ,,, - παρθενοι virgins - γαρ for - εισιν they are, ,,,
Ουτοι These - εισιν are - οι who - ακολουθουντες are following - τω the - αρνιω lamb - οπου where ever - αν he - υπαγη goes - ουτοι they - ηγορασθησαν are redeemed - απο - from - των the - ανθρωπων man / mankind - απαρχη firstfruits - τω of the - θεω God - και and - τω of the - αρνιω lamb.
Meaning = Rev 14:4 - from the Greek manuscripts
THESE ARE WHOM with / AMONG WOMEN NOT ARE DEFILED. VIRGINS FOR THEY
ARE. THESE WHO ARE FOLLOWING THE LAMB WHERE EVER HE GOES, ,,, THEY ARE
REDEEMED FROM THE MAN / MANKIND, ,,, FIRST FRUITS OF THE GOD AND OF THE LAMB.
The main focus of those who believe that these virgins are strictly male sex - is to focus in on the single word that the translators translate as the word “ WITH “ as it is translated
“ These are whom WITH women - not are defiled “
But if we know the fact that in the Bible - there is nowhere in the bible such reality or existence of a literal physical male virgin - in the bible.
This does not exist / It is impossible / not possible for a Godly Male, serving God, to physically be a physical virgin.
Unless this man is physically being connected to sexual intercourse / relations with another male of same male sex and described as { penetrated or infiltrated by another male and involved - in same sex relations.
There is no such an idea in the entire bible of a Virgin Male – the concept simply does not exist.
When we look at Rev 14:4 - as “ These virgins are whom “ WITH “ women
- THESE ARE WHOM with / AMONG WOMEN NOT ARE DEFILED,
we can easily see that the Greek word “ with / AMONG “ is the Greek word …….
……… μετά - Meta - Met-ah'
μετά - Meta - a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly denoting ACCOMPANIMENT; with - which it is joined; OCCUPYING an intermediate position between
Just as we see the translators use the word “ μετά AMONG “ to demonstrate the meaning of the word. μετά - Meta - “ with / AMONG “
Luk 22:37 Why seek ye the living “ μετά AMONG “ the dead?
Joh 6:43 Murmur not “ μετά AMONG “ yourselves.
Joh 11:56 Then they ....... spake “ μετά AMONG “ themselves
The word in the bible - WITH / AMONG is the word
μετά - Meta - Met-ah'
A primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly denoting accompaniment;
with - which it is joined; occupying an intermediate position between
AMONG , - Of the same relations of participation or proximity, and transfer or sequence.
This Greek word is used a total of 462 total times in the NT, here are just a few.
Mat 26:18 AMONG / WITH my disciples.
Mat 25:10 They went in AMONG / WITH him to the marriage:
Mar 14:17 he cometh AMONG / WITH the twelve
Mar 14:33 And he taketh AMONG / WITH him Peter
Mat 26:69 Peter ..... You also was AMONG / WITH Jesus ?
Mat 26:71 This fellow was also AMONG / WITH Jesus
Mat 27:54 and they that were AMONG / WITH him
Mat 26:36 Then cometh Jesus AMONG / WITH them
Mat 16:27 come in the glory of his Father AMONG / WITH his angels
Mat 17:17 how long shall I be AMONG / WITH you?
This correctly would be translate this word - to be understood as “ μετά AMONG “ -It simply means among, among - amongst - along with - accompanying - that which it is joined; occupying an intermediate position between, among, - of the same relations of participation or PROXIMITY, and transfer or sequence.
This is how the word “ with “ applies to the word - μετά / Meta = AMONG / WITH
It is not a SEXUAL word reflecting sexual activity or a sexual connection.
The reality is, that in the English Language - the word AMONG / WITH applies as two people only being together in some proximity or accompanying one another - and when there are more than two people accompanying one another - the word AMONG sounds completely natural in the English Language.
And see this clearly in the few examples below.
Mat 28:12 they were assembled AMONG / WITH the elders
Mat 27:53 They came out of the graves WITH his resurrection
Mat 26:40 watch AMONG / WITH me one hour?
Mat 25:31 all the holy angels AMONG / WITH him.
Rev 22:21 Christ be AMONG / WITH you all. Amen.
Mat 26:38 watch AMONG / WITH me.
Mat 26:73 And AMONG / WITH a while
Mat 26:2 after AMONG / WITH two days
Mat 24:29 after AMONG / WITH the tribulation
Mat 26:11 the poor always AMONG / WITH you
Mat 18:16 take AMONG / WITH thee
Mat 20:2 agreed AMONG / WITH
Mat 20:20 mother AMONG / WITH her sons
Mat 21:2 a colt together AMONG / WITH her { a donkey }
Mat 22:16 their disciples AMONG / WITH the Herodians
Mat 1:12 they were brought AMONG / WITH him
Mat 2:3 all Jerusalem AMONG / WITH him
Mat 1:23 virgin shall be AMONG / WITH child
Mat 2:11 young child AMONG / WITH Mary his mother
Mat 4:21 AMONG / WITH Zebedee their father
Mat 5:25 Agree AMONG / WITH thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way AMONG / WITH him;
Mat 5:41 go AMONG / WITH him two miles
Mat 9:11 AMONG / WITH publicans and sinners?
Mat 9:15 the bridegroom is AMONG / WITH them?
Mat 12:4 them which were AMONG / WITH him
Mat 12:30 He that is not AMONG / WITH me
Mat 12:41 in judgment AMONG / WITH this generation
Mat 12:42 judgment AMONG / WITH this generation
Mat 12:45 taketh WITH himself seven other
Mat 13:20 WITH joy receiveth it;
Mat 14:7 he promised WITH an oath
Mat 15:30 having AMONG / WITH them the lame, blind, dumb and maimed
Mat 17:3 Moses and Elias talking WITH him.
Mat 24:30 WITH power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 WITH a great sound of a trumpet
Mat 24:49 drink AMONG / WITH the drunken;
Mat 24:51 AMONG / WITH the hypocrites .
Mat 25:3 no oil AMONG / WITH them:
Mat 26:20 sat down AMONG / WITH the twelve.
Mat 26:23 AMONG / WITH me in the dish
Mat 26:29 drink it new AMONG / WITH you
Mat 26:47 AMONG / WITH him a great multitude
Mat 26:51 them which were AMONG / WITH Jesus
Mat 26:55 a thief WITH swords
Mat 26:58 sat AMONG / WITH the servants,
Mat 26:72 he denied AMONG / WITH an oath
Mat 27:34 vinegar to drink mingled AMONG / WITH gall
Mat 27:41 mocking him, AMONG / WITH the scribes and elders
Mat 27:62 AMONG / WITH the day of the preparation.
Mat 27:63 WITH three days I will rise again.
Mat 27:66 and setting AMONG / WITH a watch.
Mat 28:8 from the sepulchre AMONG / WITH fear
Mat 28:20 I am AMONG / WITH you always
Mar 14:14 eat the passover AMONG / WITH my disciples?
Mar 14:18 One of you which eateth AMONG / WITH me
Mar 14:20 that dippeth AMONG / WITH me
Mar 14:28 But AMONG / WITH my rising
Rev 19:1 And AMONG / WITH these things I heard a great voice
Eph 6:7 AMONG / WITH good will doing service.
Especially - to “ Jehovah Witness believers “ who hold the faith that the 144,000 are strictly male sex and also believe that this is referring to a physical virginity of the males regarding abstaining from intercourse / relations with women.
there is one single question that I ask to all believers about this verse and this question has never been answered by my brothers and sisters who believe that these are virgins who are the strictly male sex.
My question is simply this.
How is it that - a female / woman would defile a male in a sexual relationship - in a honorable Godly marriage
What is so perverted and staining and evil about the female sex –
What makes the “ FEMALE GENDER “ so awful, dirty, horrible, obnoxious, foul, horrid and obscene and poison and polluted or ungodly or unholy - that makes it so important to make certain - that a MALE is not defiled by a female - in any sexual relationship. ?
The translators make it seem that God is pleased because the 144,000 males have served him by never getting married or having any sexual contact with women.
Why is it only the male sex - ONLY MALES / MEN are only - those who are chosen and special to make sure that MALES ONLY are not defiled and perverted and tainted by female in marriage ?
What is it - spiritually about “ FEMALES “ that make them so evil and perverse and horrible - that these males who are not defiled by the female sex – are so special and chosen and holy. ?
To where God has no concept of special group of females who are a chosen group, who have not been defiled by the male sex.
we see no place in the bible where God is beholding the male sex as honorable or as consecrated or holy or as consecrated or as righteous or as sanctified or as hallowed or divine by obtaining from getting married or having sexual relations with a woman.
Through 5000 + years of biblical history - 5000 + years of commandments, laws and ordinances, with every detail, feature and aspect and element concerning exact details of what God expects and considers holy and sacred -
For 5000 + years of the bible never once, is there any hint or suggestion anywhere whatsoever considering a male sacred or holy or Godly for existing as a virgin or abstaining and refraining from having a wife or keeping himself from women sexually.
Now suddenly, out of nowhere - in Rev 14:4 we see the translation
“ These are whom with women “ not are defiled. Virgins for they are.
What if we translate the verse in context to the rest of the bible.
“ These are whom - μετά / Meta = AMONG / WITH women “ not are defiled. Virgins for they are.
In conclusion, through 5000 + years of commandments, laws and ordinances, we see no place in the bible where God is beholding the male sex as honorable or as consecrated or holy or as righteous or as sanctified or hallowed or divine by obtaining from getting married or having sexual relations with a woman.
Through 5000 + years of biblical history - 5000 + years of THE BIBLE
NEVER ONCE, IS THERE ANY HINT OR SUGGESTION ANYWHERE WHATSOEVER CONSIDERING A MALE SACRED OR HOLY OR GODLY BY ABSTAINING AND REFRAINING FROM HAVING A WIFE OR KEEPING HIMSELF FREE FROM WOMEN SEXUALLY IN A GODLY MARRIAGE.
Why all a sudden do we need to “ invent “ a new doctrine or principle that stipulates that a male is somehow obedient unto God for not getting married and having relations with a woman.
Does not - promoting the IDEA “ of 144,000 virgins “ who are all strictly male sex are more honorable, consecrated, holy, righteous or sanctified, hallowed and divine and closer to God when this concept does not exist anywhere through 5000 + years of biblical history, if this was important for God that males refrain from marriage, would it not be clearly commanded and suggested somewhere in the scriptures ? ? ?
Why would anyone such as -- the 144,000 - - be suddenly given special status and honor and a place before the judgment of Gods throne for upholding something that is not mentioned in his word ? If we adhere to the tradition that - these virgins are strictly male sex and honored for the abstaining from marriage in a “ physical sexuality “ ………
How did the entire body of all believers “ throughout all of Biblical history “ - out of all the billions of believers - they all completely missed or failed to understand and recognize the commandment and honor and never found this principle that the 144,000 virgins of strictly male sex had found in God’s word ? ?
This correctly would be translate this word - to be understood as “ μετά AMONG “ -It simply means among, among - amongst - along with – accompanying
Meaning = Rev 14:4 These are whom among women not are defiled. Virgins for they are.
there just simply is absolutely no such a thing, no concept as “ A MALE VIRGIN “ anywhere in the scriptures. The concept does not exist, until Rev 14:4 - These are whom among women
- that which it is joined; occupying an intermediate position between, among, - of the same relations of participation or PROXIMITY, and transfer or sequence. This is how the word “ with “ applies to the word - μετά / Meta = AMONG / WITH
Here is the exact word for word translation.
Rev 14:4 ουτοι these - εισιν are - οι whom - μετα among - γυναικων women - ουκ not - εμολυνθησαν are defiled, ,,, - παρθενοι virgins - γαρ for - εισιν they are, ,,,
Ουτοι These - εισιν are - οι who - ακολουθουντες are following - τω the - αρνιω lamb - οπου where ever - αν he - υπαγη goes - ουτοι they - ηγορασθησαν are redeemed - απο - from - των the - ανθρωπων man / mankind - απαρχη firstfruits - τω of the - θεω God - και and - τω of the - αρνιω lamb.
Meaning = Rev 14:4 - from the Greek manuscripts
THESE ARE WHOM with / AMONG WOMEN NOT ARE DEFILED. VIRGINS FOR THEY
ARE. THESE WHO ARE FOLLOWING THE LAMB WHERE EVER HE GOES, ,,, THEY ARE
REDEEMED FROM THE MAN / MANKIND, ,,, FIRST FRUITS OF THE GOD AND OF THE LAMB.
The main focus of those who believe that these virgins are strictly male sex - is to focus in on the single word that the translators translate as the word “ WITH “ as it is translated
“ These are whom WITH women - not are defiled “
But if we know the fact that in the Bible - there is nowhere in the bible such reality or existence of a literal physical male virgin - in the bible.
This does not exist / It is impossible / not possible for a Godly Male, serving God, to physically be a physical virgin.
Unless this man is physically being connected to sexual intercourse / relations with another male of same male sex and described as { penetrated or infiltrated by another male and involved - in same sex relations.
There is no such an idea in the entire bible of a Virgin Male – the concept simply does not exist.
When we look at Rev 14:4 - as “ These virgins are whom “ WITH “ women
- THESE ARE WHOM with / AMONG WOMEN NOT ARE DEFILED,
we can easily see that the Greek word “ with / AMONG “ is the Greek word …….
……… μετά - Meta - Met-ah'
μετά - Meta - a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly denoting ACCOMPANIMENT; with - which it is joined; OCCUPYING an intermediate position between
Just as we see the translators use the word “ μετά AMONG “ to demonstrate the meaning of the word. μετά - Meta - “ with / AMONG “
Luk 22:37 Why seek ye the living “ μετά AMONG “ the dead?
Joh 6:43 Murmur not “ μετά AMONG “ yourselves.
Joh 11:56 Then they ....... spake “ μετά AMONG “ themselves
The word in the bible - WITH / AMONG is the word
μετά - Meta - Met-ah'
A primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly denoting accompaniment;
with - which it is joined; occupying an intermediate position between
AMONG , - Of the same relations of participation or proximity, and transfer or sequence.
This Greek word is used a total of 462 total times in the NT, here are just a few.
Mat 26:18 AMONG / WITH my disciples.
Mat 25:10 They went in AMONG / WITH him to the marriage:
Mar 14:17 he cometh AMONG / WITH the twelve
Mar 14:33 And he taketh AMONG / WITH him Peter
Mat 26:69 Peter ..... You also was AMONG / WITH Jesus ?
Mat 26:71 This fellow was also AMONG / WITH Jesus
Mat 27:54 and they that were AMONG / WITH him
Mat 26:36 Then cometh Jesus AMONG / WITH them
Mat 16:27 come in the glory of his Father AMONG / WITH his angels
Mat 17:17 how long shall I be AMONG / WITH you?
This correctly would be translate this word - to be understood as “ μετά AMONG “ -It simply means among, among - amongst - along with - accompanying - that which it is joined; occupying an intermediate position between, among, - of the same relations of participation or PROXIMITY, and transfer or sequence.
This is how the word “ with “ applies to the word - μετά / Meta = AMONG / WITH
It is not a SEXUAL word reflecting sexual activity or a sexual connection.
The reality is, that in the English Language - the word AMONG / WITH applies as two people only being together in some proximity or accompanying one another - and when there are more than two people accompanying one another - the word AMONG sounds completely natural in the English Language.
And see this clearly in the few examples below.
Mat 28:12 they were assembled AMONG / WITH the elders
Mat 27:53 They came out of the graves WITH his resurrection
Mat 26:40 watch AMONG / WITH me one hour?
Mat 25:31 all the holy angels AMONG / WITH him.
Rev 22:21 Christ be AMONG / WITH you all. Amen.
Mat 26:38 watch AMONG / WITH me.
Mat 26:73 And AMONG / WITH a while
Mat 26:2 after AMONG / WITH two days
Mat 24:29 after AMONG / WITH the tribulation
Mat 26:11 the poor always AMONG / WITH you
Mat 18:16 take AMONG / WITH thee
Mat 20:2 agreed AMONG / WITH
Mat 20:20 mother AMONG / WITH her sons
Mat 21:2 a colt together AMONG / WITH her { a donkey }
Mat 22:16 their disciples AMONG / WITH the Herodians
Mat 1:12 they were brought AMONG / WITH him
Mat 2:3 all Jerusalem AMONG / WITH him
Mat 1:23 virgin shall be AMONG / WITH child
Mat 2:11 young child AMONG / WITH Mary his mother
Mat 4:21 AMONG / WITH Zebedee their father
Mat 5:25 Agree AMONG / WITH thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way AMONG / WITH him;
Mat 5:41 go AMONG / WITH him two miles
Mat 9:11 AMONG / WITH publicans and sinners?
Mat 9:15 the bridegroom is AMONG / WITH them?
Mat 12:4 them which were AMONG / WITH him
Mat 12:30 He that is not AMONG / WITH me
Mat 12:41 in judgment AMONG / WITH this generation
Mat 12:42 judgment AMONG / WITH this generation
Mat 12:45 taketh WITH himself seven other
Mat 13:20 WITH joy receiveth it;
Mat 14:7 he promised WITH an oath
Mat 15:30 having AMONG / WITH them the lame, blind, dumb and maimed
Mat 17:3 Moses and Elias talking WITH him.
Mat 24:30 WITH power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 WITH a great sound of a trumpet
Mat 24:49 drink AMONG / WITH the drunken;
Mat 24:51 AMONG / WITH the hypocrites .
Mat 25:3 no oil AMONG / WITH them:
Mat 26:20 sat down AMONG / WITH the twelve.
Mat 26:23 AMONG / WITH me in the dish
Mat 26:29 drink it new AMONG / WITH you
Mat 26:47 AMONG / WITH him a great multitude
Mat 26:51 them which were AMONG / WITH Jesus
Mat 26:55 a thief WITH swords
Mat 26:58 sat AMONG / WITH the servants,
Mat 26:72 he denied AMONG / WITH an oath
Mat 27:34 vinegar to drink mingled AMONG / WITH gall
Mat 27:41 mocking him, AMONG / WITH the scribes and elders
Mat 27:62 AMONG / WITH the day of the preparation.
Mat 27:63 WITH three days I will rise again.
Mat 27:66 and setting AMONG / WITH a watch.
Mat 28:8 from the sepulchre AMONG / WITH fear
Mat 28:20 I am AMONG / WITH you always
Mar 14:14 eat the passover AMONG / WITH my disciples?
Mar 14:18 One of you which eateth AMONG / WITH me
Mar 14:20 that dippeth AMONG / WITH me
Mar 14:28 But AMONG / WITH my rising
Rev 19:1 And AMONG / WITH these things I heard a great voice
Eph 6:7 AMONG / WITH good will doing service.
Especially - to “ Jehovah Witness believers “ who hold the faith that the 144,000 are strictly male sex and also believe that this is referring to a physical virginity of the males regarding abstaining from intercourse / relations with women.
there is one single question that I ask to all believers about this verse and this question has never been answered by my brothers and sisters who believe that these are virgins who are the strictly male sex.
My question is simply this.
How is it that - a female / woman would defile a male in a sexual relationship - in a honorable Godly marriage
What is so perverted and staining and evil about the female sex –
What makes the “ FEMALE GENDER “ so awful, dirty, horrible, obnoxious, foul, horrid and obscene and poison and polluted or ungodly or unholy - that makes it so important to make certain - that a MALE is not defiled by a female - in any sexual relationship. ?
The translators make it seem that God is pleased because the 144,000 males have served him by never getting married or having any sexual contact with women.
Why is it only the male sex - ONLY MALES / MEN are only - those who are chosen and special to make sure that MALES ONLY are not defiled and perverted and tainted by female in marriage ?
What is it - spiritually about “ FEMALES “ that make them so evil and perverse and horrible - that these males who are not defiled by the female sex – are so special and chosen and holy. ?
To where God has no concept of special group of females who are a chosen group, who have not been defiled by the male sex.
we see no place in the bible where God is beholding the male sex as honorable or as consecrated or holy or as consecrated or as righteous or as sanctified or as hallowed or divine by obtaining from getting married or having sexual relations with a woman.
Through 5000 + years of biblical history - 5000 + years of commandments, laws and ordinances, with every detail, feature and aspect and element concerning exact details of what God expects and considers holy and sacred -
For 5000 + years of the bible never once, is there any hint or suggestion anywhere whatsoever considering a male sacred or holy or Godly for existing as a virgin or abstaining and refraining from having a wife or keeping himself from women sexually.
Now suddenly, out of nowhere - in Rev 14:4 we see the translation
“ These are whom with women “ not are defiled. Virgins for they are.
What if we translate the verse in context to the rest of the bible.
“ These are whom - μετά / Meta = AMONG / WITH women “ not are defiled. Virgins for they are.
In conclusion, through 5000 + years of commandments, laws and ordinances, we see no place in the bible where God is beholding the male sex as honorable or as consecrated or holy or as righteous or as sanctified or hallowed or divine by obtaining from getting married or having sexual relations with a woman.
Through 5000 + years of biblical history - 5000 + years of THE BIBLE
NEVER ONCE, IS THERE ANY HINT OR SUGGESTION ANYWHERE WHATSOEVER CONSIDERING A MALE SACRED OR HOLY OR GODLY BY ABSTAINING AND REFRAINING FROM HAVING A WIFE OR KEEPING HIMSELF FREE FROM WOMEN SEXUALLY IN A GODLY MARRIAGE.
Why all a sudden do we need to “ invent “ a new doctrine or principle that stipulates that a male is somehow obedient unto God for not getting married and having relations with a woman.
Does not - promoting the IDEA “ of 144,000 virgins “ who are all strictly male sex are more honorable, consecrated, holy, righteous or sanctified, hallowed and divine and closer to God when this concept does not exist anywhere through 5000 + years of biblical history, if this was important for God that males refrain from marriage, would it not be clearly commanded and suggested somewhere in the scriptures ? ? ?
Why would anyone such as -- the 144,000 - - be suddenly given special status and honor and a place before the judgment of Gods throne for upholding something that is not mentioned in his word ? If we adhere to the tradition that - these virgins are strictly male sex and honored for the abstaining from marriage in a “ physical sexuality “ ………
How did the entire body of all believers “ throughout all of Biblical history “ - out of all the billions of believers - they all completely missed or failed to understand and recognize the commandment and honor and never found this principle that the 144,000 virgins of strictly male sex had found in God’s word ? ?
This correctly would be translate this word - to be understood as “ μετά AMONG “ -It simply means among, among - amongst - along with – accompanying
Meaning = Rev 14:4 These are whom among women not are defiled. Virgins for they are.
there just simply is absolutely no such a thing, no concept as “ A MALE VIRGIN “ anywhere in the scriptures. The concept does not exist, until Rev 14:4 - These are whom among women
- that which it is joined; occupying an intermediate position between, among, - of the same relations of participation or PROXIMITY, and transfer or sequence. This is how the word “ with “ applies to the word - μετά / Meta = AMONG / WITH
formaTionaTion
New Member
i guess my question should be, how could the bible say it in such a way to make is perfectly clear that these are women, female virgins.
what would it take other than saying
These are whom among women not are defiled, virgins for they are.
what would it take other than saying
These are whom among women not are defiled, virgins for they are.
formaTionaTion
New Member
it is abundantly clear that you hold to the faith that the 144,000 are strictly male sex / gender
in final thoughts please consider and think about
verse :28 The Lord is with thee: ( MARY ) blessed art thou ( Μετά - meta - among or with ) women.
we know that Mary was not blessed for having any particular relationship with women nor for performing any actions or acts with women in a physical or spiritual way -
Mary was not blessed for doing anything ( actionable ) or in good deeds or good behavior - WITH OTHER WOMEN.
But she was blessed AMONG / ALONG SIDE - with all of the other women - Among all women - not " WITH an activity or an action " or in deeds “ performing WITH “ women
but Mary was blessed among / with women - she was not blessed for performing any deeds or actions with other women - but simply of all the women of the world - she was blessed
she was undefiled, virgin among, μετά / Meta = AMONG / with women - as well.
i hope that can make it abundantly clear of what I was trying to explain, it is the same exact message in Revelation..... thanks for the opportunity
in final thoughts please consider and think about
verse :28 The Lord is with thee: ( MARY ) blessed art thou ( Μετά - meta - among or with ) women.
we know that Mary was not blessed for having any particular relationship with women nor for performing any actions or acts with women in a physical or spiritual way -
Mary was not blessed for doing anything ( actionable ) or in good deeds or good behavior - WITH OTHER WOMEN.
But she was blessed AMONG / ALONG SIDE - with all of the other women - Among all women - not " WITH an activity or an action " or in deeds “ performing WITH “ women
but Mary was blessed among / with women - she was not blessed for performing any deeds or actions with other women - but simply of all the women of the world - she was blessed
she was undefiled, virgin among, μετά / Meta = AMONG / with women - as well.
i hope that can make it abundantly clear of what I was trying to explain, it is the same exact message in Revelation..... thanks for the opportunity
Revelation 14:1–5
males, noy lgbt
THE LAMB AND THE 144,000
14 Then I looked, and there was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion,d and with him were 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.e 2 I heard a sound from heaven like the sound of cascading waters and like the rumbling of loud thunder. The sound I heard was like harpists playing on their harps.g 3 They sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders,i but no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, since they remained virgins.j These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were redeemed from humanity as the firstfruitsk for God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.l
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formaTionaTion
New Member
as someone who holds the original message transmitted from the Greek manuscripts in the highest regard I always present the original message exactly word for word - from the manuscript.
when we begin quoting from modern translations that are made by people who are moving words around to conform to a pre conceived ideology or theory or doctrine, the words can be shuffled and switched around to alter the original message and meaning.
and then we get in to adding and removing words to make the new order of wording into a concrete idea
Rev 14:4 - from the Greek manuscripts
THESE ARE WHOM AMONG WOMEN NOT ARE DEFILED , VIRGINS FOR THEY ARE
vs the translation
These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, since they remained virgins
already we see the translation moves and shuffles words around - and then we see altered and added words
two words are added in the translation that are not in the manuscripts " since and remained "
the manuscripts present a very different statement
manuscripts word for word order
THESE ARE WHOM AMONG WOMEN NOT ARE DEFILED
vs
translation adding words and moving, shuffling words around
the ones who have not defiled themselves with women
why ignore the original message ?
when we begin quoting from modern translations that are made by people who are moving words around to conform to a pre conceived ideology or theory or doctrine, the words can be shuffled and switched around to alter the original message and meaning.
and then we get in to adding and removing words to make the new order of wording into a concrete idea
Rev 14:4 - from the Greek manuscripts
THESE ARE WHOM AMONG WOMEN NOT ARE DEFILED , VIRGINS FOR THEY ARE
vs the translation
These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, since they remained virgins
already we see the translation moves and shuffles words around - and then we see altered and added words
two words are added in the translation that are not in the manuscripts " since and remained "
the manuscripts present a very different statement
manuscripts word for word order
THESE ARE WHOM AMONG WOMEN NOT ARE DEFILED
vs
translation adding words and moving, shuffling words around
the ones who have not defiled themselves with women
why ignore the original message ?
formaTionaTion
New Member
you are right, sorry for any confusion or seeming ill will if you felt I was unorthodox, however , I was trying to explain that there is nothing in scripture that expresses the idea of a " Male Virgin "
furthermore, nothing in scripture is promoting the idea of the male sex guarding or preserving his virginity, a male cannot be a virgin who is remained = heterosexual / strictly straight male
the idea of a male virgin is completely unknown in the history of the Bible - throughout the entire Bible, it is the woman who is upheld for remaining a virgin until marriage takes place.
My question was orbiting around the idea that the translation expression of males makes it seem that the scriptures are promoting and glorifying the idea of a man refraining from marriage.
that's what I was trying to say mostly.
but i agree with you
both the Catholic Douay Rheims of 1582 and the later King James of 1611
both of these translations express the term as " MALES / MEN "
the King James simply copied from the Catholic Translation and expressed the term as males
but the Greek Manuscripts Transmit the Greek word as -= ANTHRO - PON / ανθρωπων
" Anthropon " _ ANTHRO - PON / ανθρωπων
ανθρωπων - ANTHRO - PON = means " human " or " human being " - It can also refer to "mankind" or " all people of all the earth " Humanity - " Anthropon " = MAN
humans = this word is not the Greek word for " strictly male sex " / gender
Mat 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of man
Mat 17:22 + Mar 9:31 + Mar 9:31 The Son of man - SON OF HUMANITY
if the authors of scripture intended to express that the Virgins were - " Strictly Male Sex " they would have expressed this clearly by using the word " ἀνήρ - Anēr " this Greek word exists in the manuscripts 214 total times and it always means - Strictly Male Sex
Mat 14:21 + Mat 15:38 + Mrk 6:12 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men / Males - ἀνήρ - Anēr beside women and children.
Luk 5:18 And, behold, men / Males brought in a bed / Males - ἀνήρ Anēr
Luk 7:20 When the men / Males were come unto him / Males - ἀνήρ Anēr
Mat 12:41 The men / Males of Nineveh / Males - ἀνήρ Anēr
Mat 14:35 And when the men / Males of that place / Males - ἀνήρ Anēr
in Rev 14:4 the author of the Scripture did not use the Greek word for Males for expressing where the Virgins originated but simply say - THEY ARE
REDEEMED FROM THE MANKIND / humanity -
furthermore, nothing in scripture is promoting the idea of the male sex guarding or preserving his virginity, a male cannot be a virgin who is remained = heterosexual / strictly straight male
the idea of a male virgin is completely unknown in the history of the Bible - throughout the entire Bible, it is the woman who is upheld for remaining a virgin until marriage takes place.
My question was orbiting around the idea that the translation expression of males makes it seem that the scriptures are promoting and glorifying the idea of a man refraining from marriage.
that's what I was trying to say mostly.
but i agree with you
both the Catholic Douay Rheims of 1582 and the later King James of 1611
both of these translations express the term as " MALES / MEN "
the King James simply copied from the Catholic Translation and expressed the term as males
but the Greek Manuscripts Transmit the Greek word as -= ANTHRO - PON / ανθρωπων
" Anthropon " _ ANTHRO - PON / ανθρωπων
ανθρωπων - ANTHRO - PON = means " human " or " human being " - It can also refer to "mankind" or " all people of all the earth " Humanity - " Anthropon " = MAN
humans = this word is not the Greek word for " strictly male sex " / gender
Mat 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of man
Mat 17:22 + Mar 9:31 + Mar 9:31 The Son of man - SON OF HUMANITY
if the authors of scripture intended to express that the Virgins were - " Strictly Male Sex " they would have expressed this clearly by using the word " ἀνήρ - Anēr " this Greek word exists in the manuscripts 214 total times and it always means - Strictly Male Sex
Mat 14:21 + Mat 15:38 + Mrk 6:12 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men / Males - ἀνήρ - Anēr beside women and children.
Luk 5:18 And, behold, men / Males brought in a bed / Males - ἀνήρ Anēr
Luk 7:20 When the men / Males were come unto him / Males - ἀνήρ Anēr
Mat 12:41 The men / Males of Nineveh / Males - ἀνήρ Anēr
Mat 14:35 And when the men / Males of that place / Males - ἀνήρ Anēr
in Rev 14:4 the author of the Scripture did not use the Greek word for Males for expressing where the Virgins originated but simply say - THEY ARE
REDEEMED FROM THE MANKIND / humanity -
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