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Staff member
This is an issue that is very relevant to Christians today. So many so-called Christians and weak Christians actually support it or minimize its sinful nature and consequences.

The Old Testament says:
Leviticus 20:13
New International Version (NIV)
13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
The New Testament says:
1 Corinthians 6
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
The Greek word for homosexual means:
Strong's Number: 733
Original WordWord Origin
arsenokoiteßfrom (730) and (2845)
Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace Noun Masculine
  1. one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual
The meaning is clear, no ambiguity and not debatable, homosexuality is 100% forbidden.

Some try to talk around the verse meaning by saying it only means those having sex outside a marital relationship, which is a sin for men with women as well. But, it makes no such distinction. It says men with men or women with women.

Some try to spin other verses to saying God created some homosexual. There is no such verse in the Bible.

As genetic research as proven, homosexuality is not an inherent trait. The Gnome and other scientifically done research says there is no such gene or genes.

The Gnome used the term 'herent' for leanings, tendency toward, etc for some, not all, regarding homosexuality. But to set it in the correct context, theft, lying, excessive anger and other issues are also herent, not inherent.

In other words, herent traits are aspects of our sin nature. We chose to to do it or not. For some the resistance of all these areas is harder than for others. But, it remains a choice, not a mandate.

As the verse says, some were homosexual, but are no longer.

To make it even more complicated, for some it is a learned behavior, not even a herent one. We see such things all over the world. An extreme example is being a martyr in Islam.

Bottom line here is that in the End Times we are warned many will have Christ on the tongue but be far away from him in their hearts.
2 Timothy 3
New International Version (NIV)

3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.
The Bible is quite clear when one becomes a Christian they will be convicted homosexuality is a sin.

We are told we all struggle with sin. But struggling with sin, convicted and knowing it is wrong, but still tempted, is a far cry from embracing, defending and willing practicing it.

God warns what happens to those who call themselves his but are not. Read Revelation 2-3. There are strong warnings against those who tolerate sex sin.

Any student of historical patterns knows there are certain issues that are indicators of a society in decline and collapse. Acceptance of homosexuality is one of the major ones.

Being against homosexuality is not bigotry or any of the other cliches or code words used today, it is a recognition homosexuals are practicing a deadly sin. But, like with everyone else in the world, they can repent and turn to Christ.


Site Administrator
Staff member
This is something that really disturbs me about society today. We are not allowed to question people's decisions and choices and when we do we are called bigots or worse.

In thinking ... I am just trying to figure out how we (as in the USA) got to this point? 30,20, even 10 years ago this was not even a idea to be questioned in regards to marriage. Now people are just rolling along with these laws and judges and nothing is questioned or even allowed to be questioned.

No one is offering me a good reason to "accept" this change to marriage and relationships. Even if I didn't believe in Christ, why would I believe I need accept this?

I don't even think the government and law makers clearly understands exactly why we have "marriage laws" to begin with. Before this was something that was not even questionable. Now its up for discussion? Now this is an institution we need to clarify? Says who?

Of all the slippery slopes we could go down why this one, why now?
Because you don't want to be going down this slope and not just for "religious" reasons.


Staff member
I think the Falling Away/Apostasy explains it. We were warned it would happen.

Also, demonic activity. If one digs into history and prophecy, the AC is homosexual.


Staff member
That could be enlightening on the AC.

Where do we find that in the Bible/history?
This needs a bit of detail.
Revelation 16
13 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
This is the AC. You clearly see it is not the Dragon (Satan) from verse one. In the following verses you see it is not the False Prophet.

The Body of the Beast is a composite of the Four Beasts of Daniel; Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome.

It is also composite of the Ten Kings of those nations.

Out of the Fourth Beast, Rome, will rise Ten Toe Nations and Kings. That is the EU. Overlay a map or Rome with the EU and they are the same.

The AC will replace three of those Kings and create his Empire encompassing all Ten Toe Nations.

That is the Kingdom of the AC you see in Revelation in the Beast.

One of the heads/King is said to be dead of a wound. Looking at the Four Kingdoms that is Greece, specifically Alexander the Great. He died mysteriously at about 30 years of age,

Other factors pointing to him is, just like with the first Seal, he rode a white horse and did most of his conquests by treaty, not combat. He also moves rapidly, like a leopard. Alexander was a homosexual who took his male lover everywhere with him.

He comes back to life. Am I talking reincarnation or resurrection? No. I am talking possession by the demon who was in Alexander.

In the 6th Seal you clearly see it state out of the False Trinity (statue with Satan in it, the False Prophet and the AC) come demons,
Revelation 16
12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
So, this is more than a crafty man. It is an evil man possessed by a very powerful demon.
Daniel 7
He will show no regard for the gods of his ancestors or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all.
History, the Bible and logic says the AC is a homosexual.


Site Administrator
Staff member
My take away from this is that this is a setup for the greatest deception ever.

What tears me up is that the world we live in today is already falling for it, and there are not enough voices challenging it.

And when we do we are bigots and intolerant. We are shouted down by a vocal minority backed by judges and lawyers, and business, and government.


Staff member
I agree. That is what many miss about the history of Mystery Babylon. It has a goal in mind and has worked on it throughout history.


Getting Started
I agree with you that far too many want to excuse away or minimize the sins of men and women that mock God's clear word. I would like to also add that in the zeal of pointing out the seriousness of the sins of others, we too become guilty of a sin that breaks our Lord's heart - leaving love on the thrashing room floor.

Jesus told us to expose the darkness. We do that by letting our lights shine. We do that by letting the world see the product of His love and forgiveness in our lives. We do that by living lives that gives glory to God. It is easy to point out the sins of others but it should never be at the cost of showing the lost His amazing gift of love and forgiveness.

Too often, the lost see hypocrisy and dismiss our message. I know I did for a long, long time. I gave up trying to find God in the religion of Christianity that is far too often just a club of people who are very good at judging and providing charity but His message to love is lost.

God, through His love and forgiveness, changes hearts and turns the sinner from their sins. Our condemning them just makes them angry, depressed, and hopeless. Whether that is judging the drunkard or drug addict who are often self medicating or judging the rebellious teen who never grew up and is kicking against the idea that if they don't bow to God He will eternally torment them.

Bottom line is that homosexuality is a rebellion against God's holy union of man and woman to become one and produce fruit. It is a rebellion against the very image of our marriage to the Lamb to become one of God's children.

In that way, it is the worse sin but God doesn't wink at drunkards, adulterers, or a host of other horrific sins that are rooted in self love, either.


Site Administrator
Staff member
I'm really struggling with how to respond to homosexuals and those the believe the homosexual agenda is a legitimate fight for human rights.

Marriage is not a right. Its a privilege afforded to those that qualify by the states they live in. Those that qualify the state has a vested interest in since marriage produces children that are innocent and need to be most protected.

Gay marriage by natural law can not produce children. So what interest does the state have to recognize these unions in making them as equal as a traditional marriage? The reality is that a gay marriage would never be able to provide what a traditional marriage can.
The state cares about providing the best possible environment for a child to grow and develop in.
Every study about parenting reveals that the best environment for a child to grow in is one that involves traditional parenting in a traditional household.

Also there is no existing law saying that gays cannot marry. They just cant marry who they want...but neither can straight people.
So where is the inequality?

The existing laws are applied equally to every one whether you are gay or straight, black, white or what have you as long as you marry someone of the opposite sex.

Love has nothing to do with marriage as far as the state is concerned. There is no "love test" you are required to pass before you can get a marriage license and the state does not care about whether you love one another.

So claims about not being able to marry whoever you choose love is not an issue the state cares about. Straight people cannot marry whoever they choose to love either. Again equal laws apply regardless of sexual orientation.

So in this post I have not said anything about religion, or God in regards to homosexuality and have clearly stated a logical and thought out opposition to gay marriage. What about what I said above is bigoted or intolerant?


Staff member
Recently the head of Mozilla (Firebox/Thunderbird/etc) was forced to resign because in his private life he supported marriage is between an man and woman.

Everyone's opinions should be allowed and protected, until it goes against liberalism.

clark thompson

Advanced Poster
People often say that this is only a sin under the law but t is found also in the New Testament and more sexually sins are added to it as well.


Site Administrator
Staff member
It's About the Difference between Men and Women

Leaving aside the arguments for why this issue is not about equal rights, this is what I wish our opponents would grasp: Our objection to same-sex marriage is not about a difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals. If we were saying that homosexuals were lesser people unworthy of rights, then one might have an argument for this being an example of bigotry. But the case we’re making isn’t about a difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals (it’s not even about whether or not homosexuality is morally wrong); it’s about the difference between men and women.

I saw this this morning. Something to consider.


Advanced Poster
CTZ - sorry i posted earlier in the Christians-only section, if you want to discuss further with me, Core created a new thread (with the same topic) in the general section.


Site Administrator
Staff member
Sexual Expression Is a Worldview Issue

His article is sobering. When our culture lost the Christian view of the human person and each person became his own authority, we started down a dangerous road—one that ultimately won’t be able to sustain culture itself. The important thing to note here is that we can’t patch this up by convincing people to accept a man/woman view of marriage. The problem is much, much deeper than that.

As apologists, we preach Christ to the world because He is worthy, and we love Him, and we hope to help others see Him clearly enough to love Him. Rod Dreher’s article is a reminder that we should never be tempted to think that working to effect social change is more important than calling people to Christ and helping them understand our place in His world. For where He who is the True, the Good, and the Beautiful goes, truth, goodness, and beauty follow.

We don’t realize how much Christianity changed our civilization. And we don’t realize how much we’ll lose once we walk away from it.


Site Administrator
Staff member
Also may be good to go over how the example of Sodom and Gomorrah are increasingly relevant today.

Is there any history to trace as to why they became so consumed with sin? What kings and rulers led them into such rebellion?


Staff member
I don't think they were led. I think they were allowed, for the most part.

Human nature always tries to push the boundaries. Reality ceases to exist in such people thinking, they just want more and different.


Site Administrator
Staff member
No serious excavations were undertaken in the area until about 40 years later. In the 1960s, a large cemetery was discovered near Bab edh-Dhra. Archeologist Paul Lapp spent three seasons excavating the area where he unearthed a great number of shaft-tombs -- possibly as many as 20,000. (A shaft-tomb is a vertical hole, about 3 feet in diameter, dug into the rocky ground to a depth of approximately 6 feet.) At the bottom of each shaft were 1-5 horizontal shallow shafts, each containing between 1-6 bodies. In addition, there were a number of mud-brick buildings, charnel houses that are repositories for bones or bodies of the dead. Each charnel house contained the remains of several hundred people.


Current estimates of the number of bodies occupying that cemetery is about a half million! Pottery shards found with the skeletal remains indicate that approximately 3,000,000 pottery vessels were used in conjunction with the burials.


The kings recorded in the bible in Gen 14 ruling this area were:

Bera, king of Sodom
Birsha, king of Gomorrah
Shinab, king of Admad
Shember, king of Zeboiim
the king of Bela, also called Zoar


Site Administrator
Staff member
That crossed my mind also. The link doesn't say but those graves could have been in use since before the judgement fell on them.