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Pre-Adamic Creation

Discussion in 'Pre-Adamic Creation' started by CoreIssue, Nov 26, 2013.

  1. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    The Hebrew definitions, etc, strudy tools are provided in the Category Study Resources.

    When people crack open the Bible, the most common assumption accepted by Christians is that all matter and energy came into existence within the six days in chapter one of Genesis, thus meaning the earth is merely thousands of years old.

    The statement itself is flawed. The Bible does not state the Earth is thousands of years old. This statement comes from the assumption that the six days of creation begin at Genesis 1:1.

    This is incorrect. They begin at Genesis 1:3.
    The Hebrew word, bara, in Genesis 1:1, indicates that what was created was "ex-nihilo" - out of nothing. One should not confuse bara (“he created”) with its synonym `asah (“he made”). In the nothingness, there was only God.

    For examples of “made,” consider Exodus 20:11 and Exodus 31:17.
    Therefore, there is a fundamental difference between God creating, forming, and shaping the heavens and the earth [Bara' in Genesis 1:1] compared to God making, fashioning, and working the heavens and the earth [`asah in Exodus 20:11 and Exodus 31:17].

    For the definition of these words “made” and “create,” I will turn to the Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition:
    Again, notice the key difference between (made) "put together of various ingredients" verses (create) "to bring into existence." The term "made" used in the context of "create" is inaccurate, by definition.​
    God created the earth to be inhabited.
    But, in Genesis 1:2, the earth was empty. Further, an empty, chaotic [Tohuw] wasteland [Bohuw] in water [T@howm] is not conditions a human civilization can live in.

    God’s works are perfect.
    Therefore, God would have created a perfect earth in Genesis 1:1.

    But, in Genesis 1:2, the earth was an empty, chaotic [Tohuw] wasteland [Bohuw] in water [T@howm]. This is not perfection, but the opposite.

    Further, God is omnipotent—meaning he can do exactly what he wants without limitation. Therefore, God does not need to create a formless and void earth and then mold it from there, which would imply God has limits and gets tired. Clear academic logic says he can create a perfect earth and perfect universe in one, definitive act.

    In addition, Scripture shows that creation was one, definitive act:
    Also, God would have created any inhabitants [company, not race] perfect [perfect physical beings] as well.

    God would have no reason to create darkness in his original creation, for there is no darkness in him.

    Further, God himself emits light. And since he would have no reason to create darkness in his original creation [1 John 1:5], he would have let it shine on his creation.

    In Revelation 22:5, of the New Jerusalem it says, "There will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light."

    Thus, God’s own light would have illuminated his creation.

    Next, look at Job 38:6, where God asks Job about creation of earth to make a point:
    Clearly, this speaks of angels singing while the creation was completed.

    When Lucifer ("light bringer") was created, he was the most powerful guardian cherub who guarded God's thrown. However, he became power hungry and wanted to rule heaven himself.

    In Ezekiel 28:12-17, when God is giving prophesies against the King of Tyre, God uses Lucifer as an example, saying:
    These verses are clearly not speaking of the king of Tyre because:
    1) He was not perfect [verse 12], but only human.
    2) He was not in the Garden of Eden [verse 13].
    3) He is not a cherub [verse 14].
    4) He did not walk the mount of God [verse 14].
    5) He did not walk the mount of God, so he could not be driven from it [verse 16].​
    Note: The term "fiery stones" most likely refers to the Seraphim [ref. "Seraph," meaning "to burn"] who guarded God's throne while Lucifer guarded God's throne as a powerful "capstone" of a protective formation, or "structure" [ref. Isaiah 6:1-8; Ezekiel 1:1-28]. Hence, the terminology of "walk[ing] among the fiery stones" means "walking among the Seraphim."

    Lucifer wanted to be higher than God. In Isaiah 14:12-15 God related the king of Babylon to Lucifer and his fall, while talking to Isaiah:
    The significance of the "morning star(s)" is clearly that of angels created in the original creation, as referred to in Job 38:6.

    These verses cannot refer to the king of Babylon because the king did not ascend from the earth in order to be cast down [verse 12].
    Then Lucifer led one third of the angels in Heaven in his rebellion.
    Given the verse of Job 38:6, with the "stars" singing together, and Satan as the "dragon," and the flinging of stars to the earth by the "dragon's tail" (Satan’s act), it is clear that a third of the angels followed Satan and where cast down with him.
    Lucifer (Satan) was defeated and cast down.
    In Luke 10:18, Jesus, the Son of God himself said, "I saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven."
    In Isaiah 14:12, God said:
    The significance of the "morning star(s)" is clearly that of angels created in the original creation, as referred to in Job 38:6.

    A key observation in Isaiah 14:12 is that Lucifer "laid low" the nations. For the context and meaning of laid low, consider the following the following verses:

    Isaiah 25:12, where Isaiah says:
    Job 14:10, where Job says:
    And Psalm119:25, where Daleth sings:
    Clearly, by these verses, the definition and context of laid low is usually destroying, defeating, putting down, etc. Thus, Lucifer, who once defeated, destroyed, put down, etc. nations was himself put down and humiliated before the nations and kings that knew who he was and what he did.]

    In Ezekiel 28:17-19, God continues:
    In conjunction with the content of Ezekiel 28:12-17 pointed out, these verses cannot refer to the king of Tyre because:
    • He never ascended from the earth, so he could not be thrown down [verse 17].
    • God never set the person of the king of Tyre on fire [past tense] [verse 18].]

    Notice the reference to “nations” and “all who were watching.” This is a clear illusion to the perfect physical beings that inhabited the earth. Further, the fallen Lucifer was humiliated before them.

    As Lucifer and his followers were cast down, God, out of great anger, followed them and directed great wrath towards them and the perfect beings on earth that rebelled as well.
    Psalm Chapter 18's subject is David's persecution by Saul and others and the fact that God delivered him from the situation. The subject then is really God's judgment on the enemies which resulted in David's deliverance:
    • Verses 1-3 - His devotion and trust in the Lord
    • Verses 4-5 - David encounters a death crisis
    • Verse 6 - But he trusts in God for deliverance
    • Verses 16-19 - David records the Lord's deliverance from his enemies and from the death crisis.
    But in verses 7-15 - we have a record of God's judgment in a different situation.Here, the language changes totally. Here there is no mention of people. Here one must look beyond David's life to find the reference. Even if one were to symbolize the passage as a whole, it can find no correlation to David's deliverance.

    Notice God is attacking "enemies." If Lucifer and the angels that followed him were defeated and being cast down, then who was God directing his offensive wrath [“arrows and lightening”] towards? Logic says the perfect beings on earth rebelling against God.

    Look at Job as well:
    After God came down from heaven and unleashed his wrath, he observed the devastation and hovered in the position that it is in on Genesis 1:2.
    The unique past tense phraseology "formless and empty" within the future tense phraseology in Jeremiah 4 is the key. This is a reference to a different time in the past that God had seen firsthand.

    "All [the earth’s] towns lay in ruins” and “there were no people.” This indicates total destruction of civilization and total absence of physical beings. Further, “every bird in the sky had flown away,” indicating all birds had died, or been wiped out.
    At no point in human history has all people or any animals had been wiped out by God.

    Therefore, it could only apply to the "formless and empty" state in Genesis 1:2.

    After Lucifer and his angels were cast down [Revelation 12:8-9, In Luke 10:18, Ezekiel 28:17-19, Isaiah 14:12] and God’s wrath towards the earth [Psalm 18:7-15, Jeremiah 4:23, Job 9:5, Job 26:1] was finished, the earth was in the state described in Genesis 1:2 [Psalm 18:15]. One can logically deduce that the perfect physical beings who had rebelled against God were killed and their spirits roamed free [Psalm 18:14].

    Because of the failed rebellion, Lucifer [Ezekiel 28:15-16] and the angels that followed him [Revelation 12:3-4] had brought sin down to the earth [Ezekiel 28:17, Revelation 12:9]. And the sight of sin disgusted God, so he clothed it in darkness to hide it from his view.

    Looking at Job 38:9, where God questions Job about the creation of earth to make a point:
    Also, Psalms 8:3:
    Also remember that in Jeremiah 4:23 the heavens had “lost their light,” so the darkness was consuming creation. God then reformatted the darkness into the heavens above earth.

    The angels that followed Lucifer and were cast down were bound by chains and placed in a dark place when God recreated the earth beginning in Genesis 1:3.
    In 2 Peter 2:4, the apostle Peter said:
    After the Lucifer led rebellion, God had to do something with the perfect physical beings that fought for him. Ezekiel 1:4-28 and Revelation 4:6-9 speaks of unidentified “living creatures” working for God and in Heaven. These unidentified “living creatures” could be the perfect physical creatures that fought for God during the Pre-Adamic war.

    The Bible speaks of unidentified “creatures.”
    Here are examples of how the word is used in the Bible. They all show living flesh.
    As more proof:
    According to Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition:

    The Bible clearly states the Living Creatures/Being are flesh and blood
    These “creatures” seen in Heaven are never called angels. “Living creatures” means possessing blood by definition. They are flesh and blood.

    Even scripture differentiates between these two groups.
    God had to do something with the perfect physical beings [“enemies” in Jeremiah 4:23] that rebelled against him and along with Lucifer. Certain “evil spirits,” or “demons,” roam around without any sort of physical body. These evil spirits, which are not called evil angels in scripture, are the disembodied spirits of the perfect physical beings that rebelled against God and were killed in his wrath.

    In Mark 1:21-26, an evil spirit, or demon, tried to expose Jesus and who he really was before the proper time. The text says, "They went to Capernum, and when the Sabbath came, Jesus went into the synagogue and began to teach. The people were amazed at his teaching, because he taught them as one who had authority, not as the teachers of the law. Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an evil spirit cried out, 'What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are--the Holy One of God!'

    'Be quiet!' said Jesus sternly. 'Come out of him!' The evil spirit shook the man violently and come out of him with a shriek."

    Mark 5:1-13 says, "They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes. When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an evil spirit came from the tombs to meet him. This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him any more, not even with a chain. For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.

    When he saw Jesus from the distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. He shouted at the top of his voice, 'What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!' For Jesus was saying to him, 'Come out of this man, you evil spirit!'

    Then Jesus asked him, 'What is your name?'

    'My name is Legion,' he replied, 'for we are many.' And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

    A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. The demons begged Jesus, 'Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.' He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned."

    Thus ends the saga of Pre-Adamic creation and war.

    Many question the context of Ezekiel 28:12-19 because in Ezekiel 28:13 it mentions Lucifer [Satan] being in the Garden of Eden after he was identified and described as being perfect and flawless, as in before his commission of sins and rebellion. Therefore, by that argument, Ezekiel 28:12-19 must refer to Lucifer’s fall as happening during or after the existence of the Garden of Eden.

    However, this is a faulty assertion because:

    1) Genesis 3 points out Satan’s [Lucifer’s] presence in the Garden of Eden in the capacity of a deceiver and enemy of God. This means Satan already rebelled against God and left his original place in Heaven.

    2) This argument neglects the fact that Satan and his angels are cast down and hit the earth and God follows and directs his wrath to the Earth. Such events cannot go unnoticed, and nowhere during or after the existence of the Garden of Eden is either massively destructive event accounted for.

    3) Ezekiel 28:18 mentions “sanctuaries” that Lucifer [Satan] had. He definitely could have had sanctuaries during the original creation, but there is no record or existence of any sanctuaries for Satan [fallen Lucifer] in this Adamic remake of the heavens and the earth. Further, if Satan [fallen Lucifer] is the enemy of God, clear and academic logic says that God would not give him any “sanctuaries.”

    4) The Garden of Eden spoken of in Ezekiel 28:13 is the original Garden of Eden on the original earth.

    Closing Comments

    Many assert the war in Heaven in Revelation 12:7-9 is not a past event, but a future prophetic event. However, this creates the following problems:

    1) Jude 1:6 and 2 Peter 2:4 state the past tense event of angels leaving heaven and being bound in chains in Hell.
    If the angels that followed Lucifer [Satan] are already absent from Heaven and imprisoned in Hell, then Satan has no army to initiate another war in Heaven. The angels that fought against Lucifer and the angels that followed him made their free will choice to stay with and fight for God. Further, these past tense verses are self-evident that a rebellion has already taken place.

    2) Genesis 3 and Ezekiel 28:12-19 point out Satan’s [Lucifer’s] presence in the Garden of Eden in the capacity of a deceiver and enemy of God. This means Satan already rebelled against God and left his original place in Heaven.

    3) The content of Revelation 12:10-13 speaks of a future event independent from the past war in Heaven spoken of in Revelation 12:7-9.
    In verse 10, Satan [Lucifer] is identified as accusing the brethren, a role fulfilled by an enemy of God. This would indicate Satan has already rebelled. Further, verse 11 specifies the “brothers” as the church by having “possessed” the “blood of the Lamb,” which is Christ’s blood.

    The major key then lies in verse 13, where only the dragon [Satan] is identified as being hurled down by himself, with no accompanying angels with him.

    Verse 10 is consistent with Zechariah 3:1-2, Job 1:7-12, and Job 2:1-6, where Satan, as an enemy of God, stood as an accuser before God in Heaven or on earth trying to convict and bring down anyone who follows God. And it is precisely this position [an accusing position in Heaven] that he is expelled from.

    Further, note that in Revelation 12:9 Satan is referred to as the “ancient serpent,” whereas Satan is referred to as “the accuser” in Revelation 12:10. This is significant because “ancient” denotes an extremely old identity along with the reference “serpent,” which refers to Satan’s appearance in the Garden of Eden. However, the identity of “the accuser” refers to Satan’s appearances in Old Testament times [accusing Israel] and New Testament times [accusing the brethren in the church]. These roles directly refer to the time related identities of Satan [combined with the fact that Satan is cast down with angels in Revelation 12:9 verses Satan being cast down alone in Revelation 12:10].

    Defensive Argumentation

    Opponents say, “One of the popular devices for trying to accommodate the evolutionary ages of the geologists and astronomers in the creation record of the Bible has been the "gap theory"—also called the "ruin-and-reconstruction" theory . . . The gap theory was developed mainly for the purpose of accommodating the great ages demanded by evolutionary geologists.” [Quote from Dr. Morris, ICR]

    This assertion is flawed because:
    1) A perfect creation of God [Deuteronomy 32:4] is perfect as is. It does not require any form of evolution, for all God wanted to achieve was achieved in the one, definitive act of creation [Genesis 1:1]. Evolution “begs the question” of perfection and is a pointless gesture in light of perfection.
    2) Pre-Adamic Creation is not defined by those who “believe” in it, but by the solid facts that support it. For instance, the person who first “came up” with Pre-Adamic Creation does not “own” the concept, for this person could have been mistaken in the concept’s composition, supporting “facts,” and application. Instead, the proper and factual version of Pre-Adamic Creation must be tested with debate, intellectually honest examination, and the facts.

    Opponents say, “This awesome spectacle of destruction and death was not part of God's ‘very good’ creation. There was no death in the world until sin was in the world (Romans 5:12; I Corinthians 15:21; etc.). In fact, death itself is "the wages of sin" (Romans 6:23).” [Quote from Dr. Morris, ICR]

    Genesis 1:31: “God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.”

    Consider the following:
    1) It says God “made,” not “created.” [SEE GENESIS 1:1 SECTION DEFINITIONS]
    2) It says “good,” not perfect. Note the difference in terms. God’s original creation was perfect [Deuteronomy 32:4], but what God made during the six days was “very good” [Genesis 1:31].
    3) God’s creation would have remained perfect (not simply “very good”) unless something happened. For instance, God would not have created darkness [1 John 1:5], but somehow it came into existence [Genesis 1:2].
    4) In God’s original creation, Lucifer [Ezekiel 28:15-16] and the angels that followed him [Revelation 12:3-4] had brought sin down to the Pre-Adamic Earth [Ezekiel 28:17, Revelation 12:9]. However, during the six days of God’s “making” (reformatting) the heavens and the earth, God placed dominion of the Adamic earth under Adam’s possession. Sin didn’t enter the Adamic Creation until Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil [Genesis 3:6-7].

    Opponents say, “But if ‘death reigned’ not ‘from Adam to Moses,’ as the Bible says (Romans 5:14), but had already reigned for billions of years before Adam, then death is not the wages of sin but instead was part of God's creative purpose. How then could the death of Christ put away sin? The gap theory thus undermines the very gospel of our salvation, as well as the holy character of God.” [Quote from Dr. Morris, ICR]

    This statement is flawed because:
    1) The original perfect physical inhabitants of the earth were a company, not a race. Sin was not being reproduced as a state of being. Therefore, sin (rebelling against God) was purely determined by the individual’s freewill.
    2) The original perfect physical inhabitants of the earth were perfect and in full control of their actions, so they were ineligible for and required no grace from God.

    Opponents say, “The living creatures were defined as cherubim [Ezekiel 10:20] and Satan is an angel and cherub [Ezekiel 28:14], therefore the living creatures were angels, not Pre-Adamic beings.”

    Not true. Consider the following:
    I find it odd that the word "cherub" [K@ruwb] [bwrk] has an "uncertain derivation," but yet it is defined as "an angelic being."

    The definition of "cherub" had been commonly assumed to mean "a type of angelic being within a hierarchical order," but the Bible contains no support for that notion. Scholars agree on that point.

    To make matters worse, different people argue different word origins from different languages, thus making the "uncertain derivation" a ticket to legitimizing one's personal definition of "cherub."

    Consider the facts in scripture:
    1) "Cherub" [pl. "Cherubim"] is never defined as an order of angelic beings. Angels can be "cherubs" [Ezekiel 28:14], but "cherubs" are not scripturally restricted to being an inherent angelic role, as in a class/order of angelic beings.

    2) "Cherubs" are always shown to be accomplishing roles of guardianship in the context of scripture.
    Guarding the Garden of Eden.
    Guarding God's thrown.
    Escorting God as he moved.
    Guarding God's thrown.
    Guarding God's thrown.
    Guarding God and the temple.
    Guarding God's thrown.
    Guarding God and the temple.]
    Guardian of God's thrown.

    The context is clearly and plainly providing a uniform definition/understanding of "cherub" as a guardian.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2016
  2. revcheleven

    revcheleven New Member

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    Do you believe the Earth is approximately 6,000 years old?
    Evidently you don't.

    Do you believe the Earth is 4.54 Billion years old as per man's estimates according to Geologists/Cosmologists?
    ....if yes then....
    Do you believe that beings lived on Earth prior to Adam?
     
  3. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Why are you asking questions that are already answered in the post you are responding to?

    Challenge anything you wish, but make sure you don't try to use your opinions as proof. Deal with the supporting evidence as well.
     
  4. revcheleven

    revcheleven New Member

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    The bible's chronology is clearly marked out from Adam to Christ and well supported by Bishop Ussher's Timeline as seen at the following link http://bit.ly/tq8dRm. The Earth is just over 6,000 years old. No one lived on Earth prior to Adam and there is not one verse to directly support otherwise. Genesis 1v1&2 are part of the first day noted at the end of verse 5 any other interpretation is going beyond what God intended by the simple reading of the text. All that you have proposed is counter-factual. The idea of Pre-Adamic is pure fantasy. If you are going to believe in something at least have a direct verse from the bible stating the case.
     
  5. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    I provided verses, word definitions, etc proving my point. You have done nothing but make a doctrinal claim.

    How about telling us why verses laid out talking about such a past time where there was no life on the earth are false? After all, even during the flood and immediately after there was life.

    This kind of argument is absurd and is a negative proof demand.

    I can play that game as well, give me a verse that directly states the earth is 6,000 years old.

    Please explain away the verses I provided.
     
  6. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    revcheleven likes this.
  7. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    You made a bunch of claims here with no foundation. Why do you not respond in the same manner that you require of us?

    You are making the claim that the earth is 6000 years old. Provide and I quote "a direct verse from the bible stating the case."

    You need to deal with the contradiction you now have in how God created the earth to be inhabited yet the earth was created uninhabitable. This should be very easy for you to refute if we are wrong.

    We have provided direct verses from the bible stating our case very clearly.
     
  8. revcheleven

    revcheleven New Member

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    There is no contradiction....The Earth was not habitable until day 3.

    Do you seriously believe the Pre-Adamic beings lived in the dark since you believe that Day 1 did not begin until Gen 1v3?
     
  9. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    Psalm 33 is what gives you the contradiction in your beliefs. It says the heavens, earth, and all creation was one singular event and it stood firm.
    A dark chaotic ruined mess of Gen 1:2 is not standing firm.
    That is your contradiction.

    I believe the Pre-Adamics lived on the perfect earth that God commanded into existence by his word alone per Psalm 33.
    They were not living in darkness per 1 John 1 since there is no darkness in Him. He has no reason to create darkness.
    God is light. God Himself lit His perfect creation in Gen 1:1.

    You on the other hand have God who is light, creating darkness. So somehow you have be able to give an answer as to why He would do such a thing since this reveals yet another contradiction in your belief about creation.
     
  10. revcheleven

    revcheleven New Member

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    God does create darkness...
     
  11. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    That issue is covered in the thread you will not read. There you will see there was no darkness in Genesis 1:1 and in Eternity on the new earth there will be no darkness again nor sun.

    I will post one verse on the subject, read the thread for the rest.
    The earth was just as the New Earth will be. There will be no sun, no seas and no darkness.

    Yet again, you refuse to read proofs that what you say is wrong.

    That is why I said deal with that one thread first.

    When you do, either proving your case or admitting you are wrong, I will unblock this thread for you again.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2014
  12. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    There was no darkness in Gen 1:1. The earth became dark in Gen 1:2.
    Why?

    Why would the God of Light create any darkness at all in the original creation? What would the perfection in that?
    God is perfect, light, love there would be no reason for darkness.
     

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