1. We strive to be a place where there can be honest discussion, debate and fellowship. The rules are few so you can speak your mind. We know we are living in tough times and we hope to share answers and help with each other. Please join us.
    Dismiss Notice

xhacker: Homosexuality

Discussion in 'General Talk' started by xhacker, Apr 7, 2014.

  1. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    293
  2. Jessie

    Jessie Pro Poster

    Messages:
    394
    could you explain the 4th paragraph?
     
  3. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    293
    What I personally see here is a state has the power to give "dignity" to a marriage. I'm putting quotes around the word "dignity" here because I have not idea what process was used to determine this "dignity". I have no idea whether this qualification is actually dignified. Just how a judge or state has determined something to be "dignified" is highly questionable and subjective to me.

    Anyways .... DOMA interfered with that "dignity". Which Congress is not allowed to do since that state gave it "dignity". So DOMA had to go away based on the Fifth Amendment's due process clause.

    Homosexuals were being deprived of something by Congress (ie. marriage) without due process.

    I'm not an expert on law by any means but this is how I understand it.
     
  4. JAY

    JAY New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Gender:
    Male
    In my experience and understanding, the problem we keep running into as followers of Christ is that we aren't actually following his example. Time and again the Pharisees attempted to trap him into exposing himself as a law breaker. Every time, he drilled to the basics of the law. Mark 12:28-34, Matthew 22:34-40, Romans 13:8-10 are some the relevant references for this conversation. Love God. Love each other. The first thing that commonly happens among Christians when the topic of gay marriage comes up is how reprehensible practitioners of homosexuality are. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

    So when I look at our own texts regarding the "law" I find that there are a couple of references. The first foundational reference, isn't even part of the original law known as the 10 commandments. I don't find anything about homosexuality there. What I find is - Never commit adultery. Never desire to take your neighbor’s wife, his male or female slave, his ox, his donkey, or anything else that belongs to him. - then we get into an entire book of law explanations because, let's face it, they weren't exactly focused on the simplicity that God had offered. Like petulant children, they were already looking for an out. Before you react and think I am condoning or condemning homosexuality, hear me out. Because when you trace through the historical relevance of a lot of the laws laid down in Leviticus, they are just common sense things that in our current age of science and knowledge. With this in mind, it is worth noting that deviant homosexuality and pedophilia during that era was a damaging and common practice. It was okay for men to take young boy and girls for sexual pleasure as long as they were slaves or not marriageable children of freemen. Ironically, same sex couples who were loving and consenting were looked upon with disdain. At one point in Numbers, Moses even condones the taking of virgin girls for themselves when slaughtering a nation for their betrayal of Israelites.
    When I weigh all of that against the unintentional apostasy of many generations of translation of sacred texts over the last 2000 years, oh man. It makes my head spin.

    Here I am. Frustrated that it's not a simple answer. I am a disciple of Christ in modern times faced with a difficult determination. The bible is to be one of my guiding authorities. Prayer and community with other believers being the others. The problem is that the bible clearly contradicts itself if I move to literal application of every nuance of law like the Pharisees. Then there's the issue of my global faith community being torn over the issue to the point it has become divisive at many levels. So now I am left to take inventory of where I stand on the issue with some broken translation and prayer.
    • Am I convicted that homosexuality is a sin? I still can't say for certain because homosexual behavior is a broad and sweeping label. I believe that there are folks for whom heterosexual love isn't really an option because they are so badly broken or there really is no option in their lives for that kind of love to take root. That doesn't give me the right to try and 'fix' them.
    • Am I convicted that I am to love all people as I love myself? As Christ loved me when he took the nails? There is absolutely no doubt.
    • Am I certain that there are men that I love, gladly spend time with and would give my life for. You bet. Some of them are even gay.
    • Would I have sex with any of those men? No. I not only choose not to, I am not sexually aroused by them. Besides, I'm married! (a whole separate issue)
    • Is it my place to judge, condemn, punish or ostracize them for wanting to be in loving and committed relationships, get married, have/adopt children? No. That is their choice. Their freedom.
    • Does this mean I approve of pedophiles, hebephiles or ephebophiles? Absolutely not.
    This is not a simple topic that can just be solved with a bet on black or red before you spin the wheel. It has layers. Each of us has to look within ourselves and take ownership of our faith and knowledge. Do the homework. Don't be afraid to admit you might be wrong. Make the effort to understand. Pray for clarity and grace. Because that is my prayer for you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2014
  5. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,556
    Gender:
    Male
    Under Mosaic Law homosexuality was a death penalty and a sin said to make God vomit.. In the NT it is called a grave sin that can send you to hell. Sex with children was never acceptable, what was different was the age of sexual consent.

    Even today many countries has 16 as the age, which demands the consideration of how old one must be before being able to emotionally and mentally being able to hand marriage and sex. Really, puberty is at around 14, meaning desire, etc kicks in.

    Believers have an obligation to point out sin and try to persuade people to leave it and come to God. In some cases it even says remove them from congregations.

    We judge. We all judge. The Bible says to judge and tells us how to judge. Christ loves all but will judge, will slaughter million in the Trib alone and will condemn many to eternity in the Lake of Fire.

    Have the been problems with translations of the Bible? Yes, but the true Bible has never been lost to Man. We have manuscripts, history, etc to find the true Bible if we so wish.

    You have said many things in this post that cannot be supported by the Bible. In fact, they are in direct contradiction. Pick a point, state your case in a new thread and we all can discuss it.
     
  6. JAY

    JAY New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Gender:
    Male
    Before I split off into another thread, I wish to know what I have said that is in direct contradiction with the bible?
     
  7. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,556
    Gender:
    Male
    Well, there is far more to the Mosaic Law than the Ten Commandments.

    In Genesis, other parts of the OT and the NT it says one man and one woman, period.

    Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for sex sin.

    just these brief notes makes this a problematic statement, Biblically speaking:
    The Bible says not one iota (of meaning) will be lost until all is done. Another problem.

    Christ even said the soldier (also police of the day) bear their swords not in vain. Cornelius was responsible for deaths but was praised for his faith.

    So, yes, we have responsibilities in this world and society as well as spiritually. Christ even called some names and attacked them physically for what they were doing in the Temple. When he left he told the Apostles to buy swords.

    Those are just some issues.
     
  8. JAY

    JAY New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Gender:
    Male
    Wow... your view of Christ is very dark indeed. It's not the one I see in scripture. Rather than fragment this further, I will take you up on the starting of another thread tomorrow. For now, I will leave with this food for thought...

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/october1/29.70.html?paging=off
     
  9. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,556
    Gender:
    Male
    I urge everyone to read the full article. It says we must judge. It says there is not enough judgement in the world today.

    We also must accept constructive criticism as well.

    Even Paul, who judged many, said he sinned every day. So, the issue isn't being sin free before judging, but not judging from a sense of being sin free and superior.

    As for my view of Christ, it is not dark, it is real. God is said to be a God of love, which he is. But, it is love based on righteous judgement.

    Too many Christians only see the Christ who the saved will dwell with in the New Jerusalem. They refuse to see the same Christ is the one who puts people in the Lake of Fire for Eternity.

    I am a realist. I recognize the full person of Christ.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  10. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,556
    Gender:
    Male
    Let me add to a prior post.

    Nowhere in the OT does it ever give permission to just have sex with young boys in girls.

    Homosexuality was a death penalty. Period. Pedophilia is never approved.

    Finally, if a man had sex with a female slave, he had to marry her.

    A very different picture that what you have stated.
     
  11. JAY

    JAY New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Gender:
    Male
    Okay. Let's reign this in because I obviously touched on something sensitive to you. Your responses are fragmented to a point where I would literally have to spend hours I do not have answering to you and risk losing the whole point of what I said, which in summary is this - I am a Christian man who is on a journey to better understand both sides of a contentious topic so divisive that the mere attempt at thoughtful elucidation of my position in your forum (at your request mind you) has set off a theological hand grenade.

    So I ask you sir, please back it down a few notches. While I do not necessarily subscribe to the literal hermeneutics and lack of * historical/societal context you choose to apply to interpretation, I am not some poor deceived fool . Providing you do not ban me from your forum, I will gladly start a new thread, even though this one was appropriately titled to my query.

    *Changed lacking to lack of, which was what I had originally intended to say.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2014
  12. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,556
    Gender:
    Male
    Nope, I am dealing with what the Bible says versus your statements. And all the sensitive, ban, etc are truly over used responses.

    So, let us take it one point at a time, here. Overwhelming a discussion by opening too many issues at one time is fruitless. Nothing gets accomplished. I can always split it off later.

    As well, often dealing the the central point of an issue resolves the rest.

    In your paragraph talking about Mosaic Law and Israel, you said:
    As a student of history, I can tell you that cannot be found in the history of Israel or the Law. If you wish to claim otherwise, post the verses in response.

    Here is what the Law says on the subject:
    Elsewhere say says she will be made your wife.

    Bottom line is homosexuality is nowhere condoned in the Bible. Nor is sex with young boys.

    Also note it speaks of men and women, not boys and girls. Even today 16 is considered the age of consent in many places in the world, including 30 states in the US. It use to be younger.

    And note the conditions attached to having sex with a slave. She becomes a wife, no longer a slave.

    There is not room for doubt the Bible says homosexuality is a sin. Also, there are clear protections found for slaves not found in any other country of the time.
     
  13. JAY

    JAY New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Gender:
    Male
    Merging the two is selective interpretation and not in context with my post. The first part is true and was not made in reference exclusively to the Isrealites – typical homosexual relationships involved older boys and young men. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_homosexuality) In modern terms they would typically be referred to as hebephilail or ephebophilial in nature. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebephilia) There are more references for both but those are the low hanging fruit.

    The second part… still how I feel. I still can’t say for certain. You do not get to tell me that whether my feelings are right or wrong. That’s between me and our maker.

    Never said sex with young boys was condoned in the bible. I said that deviant homosexuality was part of the prevailing culture of the times. I don't ever recall the Isrealites being the prevailing culture of that era.
    But there is plenty of room for questioning the attempt to apply the laws of purity on Gentiles. In fact in your own words…
    Hence my current journey.
     
  14. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    293
    The way I work thru this issue is to set my own emotions aside. Emotions always fail me. I need to discern what Christ says and how Christ feels about this and not my own personal experience or what society tries to whip into an emotional frenzy in order to make it's case.
     
  15. JAY

    JAY New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Gender:
    Male
    So what do you think he is saying about this issue?

    To quote a friend of mine "Years ago I was very certain of my beliefs on the subject but the more I dig into it I realize I can not be as dogmatic as I once was."

    In the other thread I was asked to start, I've opened the conversation with the first things that stand out for me. I pray you all have the willingness and courage to explore this with me because I am digging in with or without you. It'd sure be great to have you along.
     
  16. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,556
    Gender:
    Male
    You referenced the Law, which was to Israel and made your comments. Now you say you were also talking about Gentiles. Please be more clear in your statements, that is important to a good conversation.

    Now you opened up yet another discussion.

    The Bible recognizes different levels of receiving of the Law:
    • Innocents in the Garden had no Law.
    • The God gave one, and one only, Law. Don't eat from the Tree of Knowledge.
    • Then God gave the Law of Conscience, which all are born with.
    • The God made more than one covenant(contract) with Abram. It had requirements only binding Abram, no one else. So now there were two groups bound differently.
    • Then the Ten Commandments, which was ONLY binding on Israel. Not on the Gentiles.
    • Then the full Mosaic Law was revealed over time, not at one shot. Again, ONLY binding on Israel, not Gentiles.
    • Then the Mosaic Law was annulled and the Law of Grace (Church Age) was given
    • Next will be the New Covenant to the Houses of Israel and Judah. Again, ONLY binding on Israel, not the Gentiles. But there will be certain laws placed on the Gentiles as outlined in prophecy in the OT.
    Romans 2 recognizes there are and were Gentiles who never heard of Israel, Moses, the Law, Christ, etc. It spells out how they are judged righteous and saved.

    Now read Romans 5, where it spells out people are only accountable for the sins they know are sins, be it via conscience, Mosaic Law or NT teachings.

    So, there is no contradiction, error or confusion once you understand these Biblical truths.

    Actually, God is telling you when he spells it out in the Bible. I am simply quoting him.

    Never said sex with young boys was condoned in the bible. I said that deviant homosexuality was part of the prevailing culture of the times. I don't ever recall the Isrealites being the prevailing culture of that era.
    Again, your lack of clarity. In your original statement it most assuredly was only about the Law, which was only given to Israel. If you want to bring in Gentiles, then you cannot make statements about what the Mosaic Law said an applying it.

    A study of homosexuality in history does not paint it as wide spread practice, except in very limited times and places. In other countries the Spartan practice was called the Greek perversion. It was mainly practiced by the rich that gave it note.

    The Bible clearly, from Genesis on, says union is between one man and one woman. So, before the Mosaic Law it was in the Law of Conscience.

    You have to look at things in the proper time frames to understand how things progressed an why there is no contradictions or confusion.
    As I have said.
    Which was annulled, but has been encompassed in NT teachings as applies to the Church.
    As I have said.
    Agree with an added qualifier. Law and the Temple will return at the Rapture when the New Covenant comes into being. The Holy Spirit will not indwell during the Millennial Kingdom. Christ said when he left, the Holy Spirit cannot be here indwelling as long as he was here in the flesh.
    Actually there are 4 areas of different rewards:
    • Those under the Law of Conscience the least.
    • Under Mosaic Law more. Wife of the Father
    • Under Grace even more. Bride of Christ
    • Under the New Covenant is vague. Could be less because the Bible says those believing under faith exceed those who believe by physically seeing. But could be more. Unclear on marital status, since Christ will be here as King and High Priest.
    Keep studying. The Bible answers a lot of your questions.
     
  17. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    293
    I would first think that either he was incorrect in his initial beliefs and the political correctness of today has persuaded his thinking or he is "falling away" in some fashion and allowing this thinking to persuade him. Its very difficult in today's society to remain true the the bible and not be persecuted in some fashion. I see it more and more everyday and its just something in our human nature not to want to be subjected to persecution or strife or conflict so its easy to see how many are just "falling away" if you will.

    And there are deeper questions ... what or who is this person's real pursuit? Is it Jesus or something else? The bible says we cannot love both God and man.
     
  18. JAY

    JAY New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Gender:
    Male
    Simply put... this last post of yours CI, is nearly impossible to read. Again, I don't have the luxury of time to dissect this and make sure which is your statement and which is mine from that. Lastly, you keep saying the bible says but all I keep seeing is you say. Scriptural reference please. Quotes from various commentaries would even be helpful. I always try to check at least 3.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2014
  19. JAY

    JAY New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Gender:
    Male
    I believe the proper biblical statement is we cannot serve both God and mammon (Mat 6, Luke 16). But again, these statements of biblical interpretation with no reference or scholarly support so I can't be sure.
     
  20. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,556
    Gender:
    Male
    Apparently you don't know how a forum script works.
    I hit reply to your post, then put quotes around each statement you made and then replied underneath.

    In this thread and the other you got verses making it crystal clear homosexuality is a sin both in the OT and NT. One that is not to tolerated being practiced.

    I am not going to get into a battle of commentaries when the Bible is clear on the issues. Especially when you already made it clear you are not into reading the Bible literally and use versions that deliberately rewrite the Bible to say what it does not say on gender and other matters.

    If you want to get into history of homosexuality outside Israel, the Church and the Bible, that is a whole other topic. One where trying to dive into and out of the Bible will not work. It is also irrelevant to what God says and wants.

    I have seen this approach far too often. You make claims, demand others post verses to disprove them and then declare no verses or disproves have been given when they do.


    As for requiring 3, another old trick. No verse of the Bible contradicts anything else in the Bible.

    Your turn to respond to the OT verses saying it was death penalty sin. And NT verses saying it is a sin that requires those practicing it after being told it has to stop or they will be thrown out of a church.

    Please deal with those verses. I gave them in this and the other thread. You have yet to address a single one.


     

Share This Page