Unlike the recent decisions, Justice Kennedy’s Windsor opinion was a narrowly tailored document with a two-part logic. First he observed that marriage is a matter for the states, some of which had extended it to include same-sex couples. Second he wrote, “interference with the equal dignity of same-sex marriages, a dignity conferred by the States in the exercise of their sovereign power, was more than an incidental effect of the federal statute. It was its essence.”
I’ve italicized that phrase for a reason. Notice that Justice Kennedy did not say same-sex marriage is a fundamental right or that DOMA violated the equal protection clause on its own terms. Rather, the state of New York had conferred the “dignity” of marriage on its gay and lesbian couples—and Congress had taken it away. Concluding that DOMA violated the Fifth Amendment’s due process clause, the Windsor opinion held that “no legitimate purpose overcomes the purpose and effect to disparage and to injure those whom the State, by its marriage laws, sought to protect in personhood and dignity.”
The Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution provides:
[N]or shall any person . . . be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law . . . .[5]
Am I convicted that homosexuality is a sin? I still can't say for certain because homosexual behavior is a broad and sweeping label.
Nobody with a beam in his eye can see things clearly. He is dangerously low on discernment. And, since we all have this distorted perspective, we need either to be very humble or else leave judging to God alone. We have a moral responsibility to judge the moral behavior of others—but only if we are humbly aware that we will sometimes be dead wrong and never totally right. We must remember that our ability to judge is limited and especially that we are sinful people who will ourselves, one day, come under judgment.
With this in mind, it is worth noting that deviant homosexuality and pedophilia during that era was a damaging and common practice. It was okay for men to take young boy and girls for sexual pleasure as long as they were slaves or not marriageable children of freemen.
As a student of history, I can tell you that cannot be found in the history of Israel or the Law. If you wish to claim otherwise, post the verses in response.Am I convicted that homosexuality is a sin? I still can't say for certain...
Leviticus 18:
22 You shall not lie with a male as [l]one lies with a female; it is an abomination.
Leviticus 20:
13 If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.
Elsewhere say says she will be made your wife.Deuteronomy 21
10 “When you go out to battle against your enemies, and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take them away captive, 11 and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire for her and would take her as a wife for yourself, 12 then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and [g]trim her nails. 13 She shall also [h]remove the clothes of her captivity and shall remain in your house, and mourn her father and mother a full month; and after that you may go in to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 It shall be, if you are not pleased with her, then you shall let her go wherever she wishes; but you shall certainly not sell her for money, you shall not [j]mistreat her, because you have humbled her.
Merging the two is selective interpretation and not in context with my post. The first part is true and was not made in reference exclusively to the Isrealites – typical homosexual relationships involved older boys and young men. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_homosexuality) In modern terms they would typically be referred to as hebephilail or ephebophilial in nature. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebephilia) There are more references for both but those are the low hanging fruit.With this in mind, it is worth noting that deviant homosexuality and pedophilia during that era was a damaging and common practice. It was okay for men to take young boy and girls for sexual pleasure as long as they were slaves or not marriageable children of freemen.
Am I convicted that homosexuality is a sin? I still can't say for certain...
Never said sex with young boys was condoned in the bible. I said that deviant homosexuality was part of the prevailing culture of the times. I don't ever recall the Isrealites being the prevailing culture of that era.As a student of history, I can tell you that cannot be found in the history of Israel or the Law. If you wish to claim otherwise, post the verses in response.
Here is what the Law says on the subject:
Leviticus 18:
22 You shall not lie with a male as [l]one lies with a female; it is an abomination.
Leviticus 20:
13 If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.
Bottom line is homosexuality is nowhere condoned in the Bible. Nor is sex with young boys.
But there is plenty of room for questioning the attempt to apply the laws of purity on Gentiles. In fact in your own words…There is not room for doubt the Bible says homosexuality is a sin.
On the Law, of course you do not hear Christians calling for enforcement of Mosaic Law because:
The Law pertained to a covenant for Israel alone. The covenant is no longer in force because of Israel's failure. It as been annulled.
There were three areas of law:
1. Moral - meaning conduct in everyday life.
2. Social (Government/economy) . It never applied to Gentiles, only Israel. Since there is no Mosaic Covenant today, it does not apply to modern Israel either.
3. Ceremonial - The Feasts, Sabbaths, etc. and other religious requirements. Those were fulfilled in Christ and do not apply today.
As more knowledge from God is revealed more is required. The more that is required the greater the rewards that can be earned. There is no contradiction since there is no sin if one does not know what is sin. The expectations of those who are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit is higher than for those who were not (a whole other topic).
You referenced the Law, which was to Israel and made your comments. Now you say you were also talking about Gentiles. Please be more clear in your statements, that is important to a good conversation.Merging the two is selective interpretation and not in context with my post. The first part is true and was not made in reference exclusively to the Isrealites – typical homosexual relationships involved older boys and young men. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_homosexuality) In modern terms they would typically be referred to as hebephilail or ephebophilial in nature. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebephilia) There are more references for both but those are the low hanging fruit.With this in mind, it is worth noting that deviant homosexuality and pedophilia during that era was a damaging and common practice. It was okay for men to take young boy and girls for sexual pleasure as long as they were slaves or not marriageable children of freemen.
Am I convicted that homosexuality is a sin? I still can't say for certain...
Actually, God is telling you when he spells it out in the Bible. I am simply quoting him.The second part… still how I feel. I still can’t say for certain. You do not get to tell me that whether my feelings are right or wrong. That’s between me and our maker.
Never said sex with young boys was condoned in the bible. I said that deviant homosexuality was part of the prevailing culture of the times. I don't ever recall the Isrealites being the prevailing culture of that era.As a student of history, I can tell you that cannot be found in the history of Israel or the Law. If you wish to claim otherwise, post the verses in response.
Here is what the Law says on the subject:
Leviticus 18:
22 You shall not lie with a male as [l]one lies with a female; it is an abomination.
Leviticus 20:
13 If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.
Bottom line is homosexuality is nowhere condoned in the Bible. Nor is sex with young boys.
Again, your lack of clarity. In your original statement it most assuredly was only about the Law, which was only given to Israel. If you want to bring in Gentiles, then you cannot make statements about what the Mosaic Law said an applying it.But there is plenty of room for questioning the attempt to apply the laws of purity on Gentiles. In fact in your own words…There is not room for doubt the Bible says homosexuality is a sin.
As I have said.On the Law, of course you do not hear Christians calling for enforcement of Mosaic Law because:
The Law pertained to a covenant for Israel alone. The covenant is no longer in force because of Israel's failure. It as been annulled.
Which was annulled, but has been encompassed in NT teachings as applies to the Church.There were three areas of law:
1. Moral - meaning conduct in everyday life.
As I have said.2. Social (Government/economy) . It never applied to Gentiles, only Israel. Since there is no Mosaic Covenant today, it does not apply to modern Israel either.
Agree with an added qualifier. Law and the Temple will return at the Rapture when the New Covenant comes into being. The Holy Spirit will not indwell during the Millennial Kingdom. Christ said when he left, the Holy Spirit cannot be here indwelling as long as he was here in the flesh.3. Ceremonial - The Feasts, Sabbaths, etc. and other religious requirements. Those were fulfilled in Christ and do not apply today.
Actually there are 4 areas of different rewards:As more knowledge from God is revealed more is required. The more that is required the greater the rewards that can be earned. There is no contradiction since there is no sin if one does not know what is sin. The expectations of those who are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit is higher than for those who were not (a whole other topic).
Keep studying. The Bible answers a lot of your questions.Hence my current journey.
So what do you think he is saying about this issue?
To quote a friend of mine "Years ago I was very certain of my beliefs on the subject but the more I dig into it I realize I can not be as dogmatic as I once was."
In the other thread I was asked to start, I've opened the conversation with the first things that stand out for me. I pray you all have the willingness and courage to explore this with me because I am digging in with or without you. It'd sure be great to have you along.
So what do you think he is saying about this issue?
To quote a friend of mine "Years ago I was very certain of my beliefs on the subject but the more I dig into it I realize I can not be as dogmatic as I once was."
In the other thread I was asked to start, I've opened the conversation with the first things that stand out for me. I pray you all have the willingness and courage to explore this with me because I am digging in with or without you. It'd sure be great to have you along.
I would first think that either he was incorrect in his initial beliefs and the political correctness of today has persuaded his thinking or he is "falling away" in some fashion and allowing this thinking to persuade him. Its very difficult in today's society to remain true the the bible and not be persecuted in some fashion. I see it more and more everyday and its just something in our human nature not to want to be subjected to persecution or strife or conflict so its easy to see how many are just "falling away" if you will.
And there are deeper questions ... what or who is this person's real pursuit? Is it Jesus or something else? The bible says we cannot love both God and man.
Apparently you don't know how a forum script works.Simply put... this last post of yours CI, is nearly impossible to read. Again, I don't have the luxury of time to dissect this and make sure which is your statement and which is mine from that. Lastly, you keep saying the bible says but all I keep seeing is you say. Scriptural reference please. Quotes from various commentaries would even be helpful. I always try to check at least 3.