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The White Throne Judgement

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
At the End of Time, after the Millennial Kingdom and Short Time of Satan, when the current heavens and earth are destroyed, there is the White Throne Judgement.
Revelation 20
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
There are those who reject the idea of eternal punishment. Universal Salvation says all will eventually repent and enter heaven. Those who believe in Conditional Immortality say the fires will consume them and they will be annihilated, punished forever with non existence.

The problem is, as this states, it is eternal torment, so they will never be saved. Why those who make this decision the reject Christ will not change is stunning, but true to the ego of unredeemed human nature.

Again, eternal torment means eternal. If one ceases to exist, they are not tormented, happy or anything else. They simply do not exist to experience or feel anything.

To put the issue beyond any kind of literal dispute, here is meaning of torment:
Strong's Number: 928
Original WordWord Origin
basanivzwfrom (931)
Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
Basanizo1:561,96
Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
bas-an-id'-zo Verb
Definition
  1. to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
  2. to question by applying torture
  3. to torture
  4. to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
  5. to be harassed, distressed
    1. of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
Finally, some even try to another meaning because they believe the Bible has been corrupted.

Well, if so, they they cannot appeal to the Bible on any subject since it is corrupted. Nor have any offered the slightest proof of such corruption.

Appealing to such human created books as the Vulgate and New World Translation proves nothing. We recognize they are not the true Bible. We have thousands manuscripts predating both back into the Old Testament times that validate translations like the NIV and NASB used the manuscripts for translation. Christ quoted the Old Testament and never said it was corrupted.
The Judgment of the Dead
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
This is the Second Resurrection. Read earlier in Revelation to see the First. The First is of the saints and lasts from the Rapture until the End of Time.

God said he would not judge the saints, but reward them. Here we see nothing but judgement of the damned.

This also denies annihilation in Hell. It states Hell has dead in it to be given up. These are the spirits of the lost.

It also says the sea gave up its dead. Those are bodies. Thus another confirmation the damned are resurrected, but not glorified.

Even further, they are all thrown into the Lake. Satan, the AC, the False Prophet, the Fallen Angels and the human damned are all there for Eternity.

God is indeed loving, not love, as if love is a person. Soldiers, judges, police, those who do acts of self defense, etc can be very loving. But love does not deny justice. They are not mutually exclusive terms.

No more choices, decisions made and eternity set. The lost will not be with the saints on the New Earth in the New Jerusalem in Eternity to come.
 
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Ruth

Getting Started
Post deleted for violation of Category Rules. The State a belief the Bible is infallible and inerrant. As well Eternity in the Lake of Fire for the lost.

Ruth believes neither.

CoreIssue
Administrator

All posting now requires moderator review and approval.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jessie

Pro Poster
there is a huge difference between the physical realm and spiritual realm.
the tree of life was in the physical.
 

CTZonEdit

Site Administrator
Staff member
In doing more research on hell I'm not sure if the flames spoken of are literal fire flames or are they symbolic?

I think a lot of people are confused that hell is going to be something they see in a cartoon with "imps and devils" running around torturing the lost with pitchforks and Satan the king of this firey "underworld".

I do not see hell as being a place of "torture" for the lost as if God is sending people to hell to torture them for not believing forever and ever.

Torment and torture are not the same.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
I do believe Hell and the Lake of Fire are literal flames.

Remember, the Richman spoke of being incredibly thirsty?

As well as the physical OT placed used as a comparison? Never ending unquenchable consuming fire.

As for the imps and devils, nope.And Satan will be a resident prisoner, not the king.

I doubt people will be anything but alone. together would allow for committing more crimes against each other.

As for torture, the Bible makes it very clear it is a place of pain, suffering, agony punishment and in Revelation 20:10 says torture.

The Greek word does mean torture.

The Bible also makes it very clear there are degrees of punishment. So, such as Satan are going to get the maximum while I think some others will get far less, but still be in the fire.

Not a nice place and why God set it up this way, I cannot answer.
 

CTZonEdit

Site Administrator
Staff member
I agree that it would be a type of torture for the individual soul who has been rejected but God is not using hell as a "torture chamber" in the classical sense.

He is not sending people to hell to outright torture them, they torture themselves by knowing the truth of God and have to live with that choice for all eternity.
 

Jessie

Pro Poster
I had read a article Im thinking in national geographic awhile back, they were going over fire in outer space.
it was much different than here, but still fire. I wish I knew where to find the article.

my point is that in the parable in Luke 16 This fire is agonizing, but does not consume like what we know.
and it would be in the spiritual realm, so its a fire we really dont have experience with, we know what the bible says about it,

God means what he says. although it may not be exactly the same thing as we know on this earth,
literal is literal. the parable shows the man wanted water...
and God has bent over backwards to reconcile us to him.

guess most of thats already been said.
Mcgee thought as time went on they would grow more evil..
Luke 16:19-31

 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
Forget all the rules we live under regarding the nature of things.

Decay, physical death, harm and all the rest will be gone. How that will work, not a clue.

But, we will still have all our senses.

Remember, those in the Lake will be resurrected, but their flesh will not be glorified. So it will like their flesh on the earth, but still different. And very different from glorified flesh.

That moves this issue out of the realm we can possibly understand.
 

CTZonEdit

Site Administrator
Staff member
Ive seen some making the fire not literal fire so its confusing.

As in hell is an eternal darkness but there are flames? How is it utter darkness with flames? So is the darkness literal and the flames are not or are the flames literal and the darkness is not?

Or that the fire is symbolic of God's judgement. God is the consuming fire in Heb 12:29. Or the flames that surround Christ and the sword in his mouth when he returns.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
As I said, God changes all the rules. Nothing will be the same.

Even now, scientists have discovered a form of cold fire.

Fire can take whatever form God wants it to. It can act anyway God wants it to.

Some things are literal and some are symbolic.The sword from his mouth is actually in other places defined as the cutting power of his words.

I believe the fire is literally fire, but not fire we know or understand. I also believe the darkness is literal.

God is light. God is absent in Hell, so it is logical light is as well.

When God destroyed the earth in Genesis 1, he blanketed it in darkness, not wanting to see the sin. He withdrew light.
 

CTZonEdit

Site Administrator
Staff member
All good points.

Here are some other things to think about when people object to hell. What would the other options be for a loving, just, and holy God?

Remembering that He cannot violate his own character (loving, just, pure, holy) and he cannot violate man's freewill choices.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
Agree. With freewill involved it is either total separation from God and the saved or total destruction.
 

ekatch

New Member
From what I have read, Hell is torment. Peoples skin will burn, They will not be able to see God. Maybe when we get to Heaven,God will explain to us why some people are chosen and some people are not.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
I think it has already been made clear enough to understand.

Romans 8 and other places tell us we have free will. We are given every opportunity to choose God, via the Law of Conscience to the far more advanced picture we hare given via the Bible

God's justice demands all sin be paid for. Those who chose Christ have theirs paid for by him. Those that do not pay for their own.

God does not share his blessing with those in Hell. So what you see in Hell is the total absence of God's blessings.

Obviously there is more to it and from what I understand from the Bible, we will either see it more clearly in eternity or will just accept what God decided is just and move on.

I do know Hell, our own past, etc will not be remembered, as in thought about. We will live in and for that future reality.
 

ekatch

New Member
Since there is no sin in heaven, we won't remember our earthly lives. However,we will recognize eachother. Very confusing to me as of now. Also. I am confused about election. Some people are chosen to be saved and some are not from God in the very beginning.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
It isn't that we cannot, but that we won't remember. It serves no purpose in eternity.

On election, God does chose who will be saved, that is Calvinism and denies freewill which the Bible states we most certainly possess.

Romans 8 spells it out very clearly.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
God foreknew, not predestined, those who would love him.

Christ died so that none would be lost, but not all chose to love him. You have to repent by faith through grace in Christ to be saved.

Those who will love him he calls to him to ensure they will be saved by their freewill choice.

Adam and Eve were not saved, they were innocent, meaning they did not know what sin was. Therefore they were not accountable.

But, once they disobeyed the one and only law God had given them, they gained knowledge of sin via Law of Conscience that now resided in them.

When we are saved, we are changed. We know what sin was and still sin in the flesh, but not the spirit. We are no longer subject to the Law that condemns, since Christ paid the price for our sins; past, present and future.

Thus we are predestined all the way to glorification. We cannot go back.

God makes that very clear:
31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
When resurrected, our flesh will be made as pure as our spirits.

It does not say just some will be with Christ for eternity, it says all the saints will be, from Adam until the last person loses their earthly flesh at the end of time.

God elects all who love him and repent to be his for eternity.
 

ekatch

New Member
I was taught Once saved always saved. I know when a person gets saved God the Holy Spirit enters you and never leaves. But I was taught we don't do anything to earn our salvation. It is a gift from God I learned Faith alone Grace alone Scripture alone from the Berean Bible Society I learned you are either one of the elect or you are not. Yes we have free will. But when God resides inside of us we don't want to continue sinning.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
One element is missing in what you said. We must repent, through grace by faith. It is a gift indeed.

Repentance earns nothing. It is asking God to cleanse and forgive us.

Works earn rewards, not salvation. Asking is not a work. It is asking for Christ to do it for us via the Holy Spirit.

OSAS is what the Bible teaches.
 
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