the Tension for Christians Surrounding Homosexuality

[JAY]

Yes. There is a tension, as my post elsewhere in this forum has clearly demonstrated. I am a Disciple of Christ and I have family, friends, co-workers and fellow believers who are members of the LBGT community. I suspect other believers reading this post do as well. While I am not a moderator of this forum, it is my hope that there be mutual respect exhibited. Because really, that's why we're defensive. A lack of respect. It's why I hesitate to tell some of my gay friends I am Christian. It's why it has taken my friend more than two years to share with me about his romantic life. He still hasn't completely told me. I have had to put it together myself. When I ask to clarify, he changes the subject because he has been hurt by Christians. That fear is driving a wedge in a friendship I feel was ordained by the Spirit. His mother is a Pastor. His father and step-mother kicked him out of the house as a teen. He is hurting and desperately needs grace. The kind of grace that comes from a relationship with Christ. But because of the current climate in our church culture in general, not necessarily yours or my home church, he has been disenfranchised.

In my prayer, study and discussion with others I have come to the conclusions that there are three approaches we can take with LGBT folks who want to be come into a relationship with Christ and know the love of God. What is and is not Biblical about each of them?

1. Unconditionally welcomed - what would this look like? Is it possible? (possibly the single most complicated approach)
2. Conditionally welcomed - you can come but please refrain from discussion about it and public displays of affection with your partner? Hey, do you mind making a commitment to celibacy while we work out your salvation and cure you?
3. You are not welcome here - this is not worth discussing. Can you show me a clear passage where Christ would support this? (see Luke 7:36-50)

I don't have the answers. If anything, I have more questions than when this was first lain upon my heart recently. Lord willing, I'll share more as I learn more on my journey. I hope you all will share this journey as well. The only wrong approach is total silence.

 

[JAY]

I am going to start with this...

The greatest commandments from Christ himself. Love God and love each other. Why does that love have to be conditional?

Matthew 22:34-40 NRSV
34 When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, 35 and one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” 37 He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

Mark 12:28-34 NRSV
28 One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, “Which commandment is the first of all?”29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one;30 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 Then the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that ‘he is one, and besides him there is no other’; 33 and ‘to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength,’ and ‘to love one’s neighbor as oneself,’—this is much more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 When Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” After that no one dared to ask him any question.

Luke 10:25-37 NRSV
25 Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he said, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?” 27 He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.”

29 But wanting to justify himself, he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” 30 Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell into the hands of robbers, who stripped him, beat him, and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a priest was going down that road; and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan while traveling came near him; and when he saw him, he was moved with pity. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, having poured oil and wine on them. Then he put him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said, ‘Take care of him; and when I come back, I will repay you whatever more you spend.’ 36 Which of these three, do you think, was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?” 37 He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”

 

[CoreIssue]

Yes. There is a tension, as my post elsewhere in this forum has clearly demonstrated. I am a Disciple of Christ and I have family, friends, co-workers and fellow believers who are members of the LBGT community. I suspect other believers reading this post do as well. While I am not a moderator of this forum, it is my hope that there be mutual respect exhibited. Because really, that's why we're defensive. A lack of respect. It's why I hesitate to tell some of my gay friends I am Christian. It's why it has taken my friend more than two years to share with me about his romantic life. He still hasn't completely told me. I have had to put it together myself. When I ask to clarify, he changes the subject because he has been hurt by Christians. That fear is driving a wedge in a friendship I feel was ordained by the Spirit. His mother is a Pastor. His father and step-mother kicked him out of the house as a teen. He is hurting and desperately needs grace. The kind of grace that comes from a relationship with Christ. But because of the current climate in our church culture in general, not necessarily yours or my home church, he has been disenfranchised.

Here you open up a number of other issues of discussion, who does exactly what I said is unprofitable. So, all I will say on this at this time is I also have gay friends and the NT speaks of those who "were" gay in churches but are no more. As well as hating the sin but not the sinner is very important here.

In my prayer, study and discussion with others I have come to the conclusions that there are three approaches we can take with LGBT folks who want to be come into a relationship with Christ and know the love of God. What is and is not Biblical about each of them?

1. Unconditionally welcomed - what would this look like? Is it possible? (possibly the single most complicated approach)

It is not possible if following the Bible. What is doable is loving acceptance wrapped in correction and teaching. But, the Bible makes it clear if those in sex sin refuse to hear the correction and continue in their sin they are to be removed from a church. Otherwise, as examples of are given in the Bible, acceptance of their sin becomes damaging to the rest of the church.

Conditionally welcomed - you can come but please refrain from discussion about it and public displays of affection with your partner? Hey, do you mind making a commitment to celibacy while we work out your salvation and cure you?

Welcome them as you would anyone one else, saved or sinner. Discussion is a must before there can be change. Working with and education is a must to give understanding of why it is a sin, what Christ gives and expects and understanding the Bible speaks of those who were homosexuals but no longer are.

A church must never support or condone sin for the sake of political correctness.

As a side note, remember their are prison ministries dedicated to witnessing to convicts.

You are not welcome here - this is not worth discussing. Can you show me a clear passage where Christ would support this? (see Luke 7:36-50)

That does not exist in the Bible.

As for Luke, Christ condemned the Pharisees as being legalists and not real followers of God.

I don't have the answers. If anything, I have more questions than when this was first lain upon my heart recently. Lord willing, I'll share more as I learn more on my journey. I hope you all will share this journey as well. The only wrong approach is total silence.

On one hand we should never stop learning. On the other I have studying for 53 years, so I have seen and learned a lot.

Having questions is the only way to begin this journey.

 

[JAY]

In my prayer, study and discussion with others I have come to the conclusions that there are three approaches we can take with LGBT folks who want to be come into a relationship with Christ and know the love of God. What is and is not Biblical about each of them?

1. Unconditionally welcomed - what would this look like? Is it possible? (possibly the single most complicated approach)

It is not possible if following the Bible. What is doable is loving acceptance wrapped in correction and teaching. But, the Bible makes it clear if those in sex sin refuse to hear the correction and continue in their sin they are to be removed from a church. Otherwise, as examples of are given in the Bible, acceptance of their sin becomes damaging to the rest of the church.

You say it is not possible. Please support that with biblical reference.

Conditionally welcomed - you can come but please refrain from discussion about it and public displays of affection with your partner? Hey, do you mind making a commitment to celibacy while we work out your salvation and cure you?

Welcome them as you would anyone one else, saved or sinner. Discussion is a must before there can be change. Working with and education is a must to give understanding of why it is a sin, what Christ gives and expects and understanding the Bible speaks of those who were homosexuals but no longer are.

A church must never support or condone sin for the sake of political correctness.

As a side note, remember their are prison ministries dedicated to witnessing to convicts.

You say this. Again, I need to see biblical support. Let's see how Christ handles it.

You are not welcome here - this is not worth discussing. Can you show me a clear passage where Christ would support this? (see Luke 7:36-50)

That does not exist in the Bible.

As for Luke, Christ condemned the Pharisees as being legalists and not real followers of God.

It looks like we almost agreed on something here!

I don't have the answers. If anything, I have more questions than when this was first lain upon my heart recently. Lord willing, I'll share more as I learn more on my journey. I hope you all will share this journey as well. The only wrong approach is total silence.

On one hand we should never stop learning. On the other I have studying for 53 years, so I have seen and learned a lot.

Having questions is the only way to begin this journey.

I've been studying for 35. Been down some very dark roads in the process so I have seen and learned much as well. I would challenge you to include your scriptural references for your points of discussion though. Help me understand where you are coming from so even though we may or may not disagree, we have a common ground of communication.

 

[CoreIssue]

Here are verses that address the issues.

Revelation 2
18 “To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:

These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. 19 I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first.

20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

1 Corinthians 5 New International Version (NIV)

Dealing With a Case of Incest
5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who a9re immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[d]

For clarity on the meaning of "associate."

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 4874
Original Word Word Origin
sunanamignumi from (4862) and a compound of (303) and (3396)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Sunanamignumi 7:852,1113
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
soon-an-am-ig'-noo-mee Verb
Definition
to mix up together
to keep company with, be intimate with one

It does mean do not speak to or be around such, as shown with Jesus going into a bar to talk.

There are references elsewhere as to those who were homosexuals but are no longer. Obviously someone took the time to talk and work with them to bring them to Christ.

But, there is a vast difference between witnessing to a homosexual and accepting homosexuality. The key is do they listen or do they continue and defending their sexual practices?

In these two examples you see continued practice and being given an chance to stop the sin. But they did not.

Finally, in the OT and NT incest, adultry, fornication, etc are sins. But homosexuality is condemned more strongly than these.

So, here is your proofs you asked for.

I've been studying for 35. Been down some very dark roads in the process so I have seen and learned much as well. I would challenge you to include your scriptural references for your points of discussion though. Help me understand where you are coming from so even though we may or may not disagree, we have a common ground of communication.

Scriptures included above and another excellent reason to keep the topic to a point at a time. Writing book reports loses smooth flow, the important small details and can be confusing to others.

I do see some differences between us:

• You are not fully on board with being literal, but I am.
• You also seem to see a way to try to get around some points you don't like but saying there are translation errors over time and using such as the God's Word for citing verses and the NRSV (owned by the National Council of Churches). both of which are mistranslated for the sake of gender neutrality and other errors. While I agree translating does make some issues unavoidable, using good manuscripts and translations avoids the essential meanings being lost, as said in the NT on not one iota of meaning being lost.

Just pointing that out for the sake of others to demonstrate we are different in many key aspects.

With that said, I am happy to continue the discussion.

 

[JAY]

I don't just use those two translations. I use many. The NIV and KJV are two that I keep on my bed stand. I actually have a trip I am planning to spend some time in the Duke Divinity School Library to research this very topic. I am not content to accept what ever cake mix of faith around this subject anyone hands me. I want to know the recipe. More later.

 

[CoreIssue]

I don't just use those two translations. I use many. The NIV and KJV are two that I keep on my bed stand. I actually have a trip I am planning to spend some time in the Duke Divinity School Library to research this very topic. I am not content to accept what ever cake mix of faith around this subject anyone hands me. I want to know the recipe. More later.

Using a deliberately altered to prove a doctrinal point is never acceptable. The NRSV is easily proven to be such. Read here, here and here. So is the New NIV.

And coming from the National Council of Churches? Need I say more?

As for the Duke Divinity School, it is Methodist supported. Yet another liberal denomination that is into gender neutral and allowing women preachers in disregard to the prohibition in the Bible.

Nor is using a paraphrase acceptable, no matter how good one may think it is. That applies to the God's Bible, and some others.

Again, ensuring the readers see clearly what is happening in this thread.