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The Rapture

Discussion in 'The Rapture' started by CoreIssue, Aug 17, 2014.

  1. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    This is a topic that stirs much passion and debate. But it is a critical issue for understanding the End Times.

    You hear the argument the word does not appear in the Bible, which is true. But it is a straw-man argument as will be shown.
    138)
    Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
    Harpazo1:472,80
    Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
    har-pad'-zo Verb
    Definition
    1. to seize, carry off by force
    2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
    3. to snatch out or away
    NAS Word Usage - Total: 14
    carry off 1, caught 4, snatch 2, snatched...away 1, snatches 1, snatches away 1, snatching 1, take...away...by force 1, take...by force 2In the Vulgate Bible the Greek word 'Harpazo' is translated as the Latin word 'raptus.' Then 'raptus' was translated into the English word 'rapture' for theological purposes.

    Now, before anyone screams I am doing the straw-man, let me remind you many theological terms commonly used are not in the Bible, such as 'trinity' and 'first, second and third person of the Godhead.'

    Interestingly, Catholics are among those who use the 'not in the Bible.' Strange, when 'Pope,' 'Cardinal,' 'Holy Roman Church,' etc are not in the Bible or even hinted at existing. They came from the ancient Roman Pagan Religion, not God or the Bible.

    Finally, many words in the English Bible are not one for one translations of the Greek or Hebrew. In example, Jesus should be Joshua.

    The Rapture is not to be confused with resurrection of the Two Witnesses that will occur at Mid-Trib and saints at the Second Coming.

    There is another unique 'Thief in the Night' event at the end of Time after the Millennial Kingdom, but that is a different topic.

    It is defined as:
    • The Lord descending to the clouds, not the earth, as at the Second Coming
    • A Thief in the Night event, again not as at the Second Coming
    • The dead saints rising back to life (resurrection) first
    • The dead and living saints being snatched up the Christ in the clouds
    • All going to the Father's House in Heaven for the Marriage Supper
    With that in mind, there are a number of theologies concerning this area of study. Here is a partial list:
    • Historicist
    • Preterist
    • Amillenialism (no Rapture)
    • Pre-Trib Rapture
    • Mid-Trib Rapture
    • Pre-Wrath Rapture
    • Post-Trib Rapture
    • Partial-Rapture
    • Post-Millenial Rapture
    What is most interesting to note is Pre-Trib is held by those are the most literal in studying the Bible. The farther you move either direction, in timing, the more non-literalistic the believer.

    Pinning down the time is where a lot of debate comes in. Here are some key verses to examine:
    Matthew 24
    36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
    This obviously eliminates a number of theologies. The Trib is 7 years long, so once the Trib begins there time marker you can count from to time following events.

    It also clearly shows the Rapture cannot happen during the Trib. The Trib is not a time of normal living.

    Further, this is a clear showing of being snatched away as in 1 Thessalonians 4.
    Revelation 3
    These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.​
    Again, looking at the prior chapters and verses in Revelation you see a time flow. This is of the Church Age. This church is still faithful, but weak, a description of Christians today.

    This church coexists with the 7th church, the false church.

    The 6th church is promised to be kept from the Hour of Trial. A very important promise since 'kept from' in the Greek means protected by being removed from the place at issue. No testing of these Christians.

    In other words, they are Raptured since the place of trial is the whole earth. Noah was removed from the land, the place of destruction then. Lot was removed from the plains, the place of destruction then.

    Nowhere in the Bible has anyone God 'kept from' something been in it and through it. They are always out of it, be it a country, city, etc.

    The 7th church is cast into the Trib.

    The very next verses show the lampstands, meaning covenant, of the Church is gone and replaced by the Two Witnesses, the lampstands of the New Covenant to Israel and Judah.

    More so, you can overlay the 70th Week of Daniel onto the 7 year Trib of Revelation and see they are the same time period. Both begin with the Anti-Christ and his treaty.

    That is significant because the AC cannot be revealed until the Restrainer is removed from the earth.
    2 Thessalonians 2
    6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.​
    The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit. The Holy spirit indwells every Church saint, so to be removed the Church also has to be removed, meaning the Rapture.

    Some try to say the Church is the Restrainer and others Michael. Neither can be true because the Church did not exist before the Resurrection and neither the Church or Michael are everywhere on the earth at the same time, but lawlessness is.

    The Church is not to been seen or talked about again until the end of the Trib. The 24 Elders of Old Testament Israel are sitting before the Throne of the Father.

    This all means the Rapture and the revealing of the AC happen at the same time. The OT saints are glorified and the Church is in the Wedding Supper.

    That is the Pre-Trib Rapture.
     
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  2. Willy

    Willy Pro Poster

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    I think I will no longer use the word rapture. It is a needless stumbling-block. I will use the literal definition "snatching away" and go from there. We then eliminate the debate of the word rapture not being in the scriptures.

    The pre-trib snatching away (harpazo) of the Church is certainly in the scriptures.
     
  3. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Hmmm. Interesting point. You are right on.

    But, as well, now you will have to explain what you mean.

    A conversation starter, for sure.
     
  4. Willy

    Willy Pro Poster

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    Also, as you pointed out, the word rapture is right out of the Latin Vulgate, so I am surprised we adopted the word at all ...
     
  5. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    I guess the theologians wanted an easy to use, remember and unique term.
     
  6. Willy

    Willy Pro Poster

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    I think you are right. I always end up defining what the word means anyway so it is no big jump for me.
     
  7. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Yep. I know what you mean.
     
  8. PoliticalDebris

    PoliticalDebris New Member

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    6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
    Has the lawless one been revealed? Would the answer to this be obvious? Have we always seen "all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie," or are these displays yet to come or have they just recently been seen, or what?
    The truth is to confess and believe in Jesus. For me, I have grown to understand three options:
    1) know that I am going to fall short and sin, but still be saved by my belief in Jesus,
    2) or resist temptation because I believe in Jesus and that belief will mean I will be happier,
    3) choose wickedness.
    I wonder if I have grown properly, and wonder if option 2 is the only correct one.

    What about signs and wonders?

    I did see some numbers in the sky. I saw the number 1157 on hwy.191 in Arizona. But it was upside down. If one would just turn the numbers around and right side up, it would have been the number 7511. I was a math teacher and have a lot of practice with writing and reading upside down while my student sits opposite me. So as I was looking at the numbers while driving my motorcycle, I tried to make sure I had it correct. I studied the 5 to make sure it wasn't a 2. I recall making a conscious decision to make sure I had it right because I needed to report this.
    The numbers were not made of clouds, but were in the clouds and were brilliant and dark, threatening black clouds were behind these numbers.
    I could tell you a lot more, about these numbers, but would rather see if there is anything you can make of what I have told you so far.
    Also, I asked my students if they saw the numbers in the sky. They laughed and one or more shouted out there were aliens. Well, I will tell you one more thing now. School was closed for three days because right after those numbers there was a huge rain storm that did a lot of damage to the four corners area - all the way up to Denver I guess. So the students might have been joking about the aliens causing the devastation.

    Finally, I was brought up in a Quaker church on a farm. Everything was works oriented in my little mind. It seemed like I had to work my way to heaven, but at the same time, for some reason I felt like I could fail and maybe get right with God at a later time.

    I have occasionally volunteered myself to God to use me, but I know that Jesus already, so I don't usually last to long at that and just thank God for Jesus.
     
  9. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    No.
    No, not obvious to many. No, not the scope or scale that will be in the Trib.

    What we have seen in history is nothing compared to what is to come.
    The topic here is the Rapture. You are talking about salvation and sanctification. Valid but completely different issue.
    Again, different in kind and scale.
    I fully understand demons can deceive, God can show and we can delude ourselves. The question is being able to discern which is occurring.
    Again, irrelevant to the Rapture issue.
    OK.
    Many think that way. Usually a sure ticket to Hell.
    I saved, you belong to God. You don't volunteer, he calls you to work.

    Now, back on the removal of the Restrainer(Holy Spirit). We know he as not been removed because the Church is still here. Believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, so if you goes we go.

    We also know because the Trib is the Time of Testing the World. God does not test his Church.

    So, we are in the End Times and witnessing the birth pains. But, the Rapture and Trib are yet to come.
     
  10. PoliticalDebris

    PoliticalDebris New Member

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    Have not read your reply, but I want to quickly admit I made a minor mistake - it was hwy.160, not 191. Don't know why I made that mistake. I was probably within 4 or 5 miles of Teec Nos Pos Arizona, heading to Red Mesa, Arizona from Farmington, NM.
     
  11. PoliticalDebris

    PoliticalDebris New Member

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    Ok. Some more info. I didn't know what to think of those numbers for a long time.

    9/2/2013 at about 7:30 to 7:50pm I was nearing Red Mesa on the motor scooter. I was praying. I prayed that God would lift me up out of this situation. I prayed forgiveness to enemies and prayed for the Lord's will concerning them as well as myself. I prayed many things. I looked in the sky and it was strange. There were streaks through the clouds as if the clouds had been cut by jets. The streaks were bright. Before I noticed the streaks I saw 11:27 or 11:57 upside down in the sky to the west. I was driving west. As I continued to look I thought how clear the numbers were, but noticed they were getting more and more clear. The numbers were shining brilliantly and I was amazed at how perfect they were shaped. I was confused because they were upside down and didn't want to miss the marvel by trying to make sure I righted them in my mind. The 11 part never became as clear. I probably saw the numbers for 30 seconds.

    Later that evening I went to the school where my wife was to call me at about 8 pm. She called and I told her about the numbers. My son who was and is studying to be a pastor tried to interpret. I told my pastor at Grace Hill Church in Farmington.
    I think it was immediately that evening of the 2nd of September, I sent Dr. Schuller an email about the numbers.
    It seems to me that nobody really thought a big deal of it and probably thought I was crazy or just seeing things or saw a rare illusion or something. But after several months, I finally discovered more to it.

    My dad died on April 22, 2013 at about 6:30 am.! Now, I don't want to say it - but figure out the numbers yourself!
    When he died they said it was cloudy and the clouds opened up a single beam on his house in upstate NY. That also just seemed probably a coincidence.

    I do not know what my responsibility is. Was it just a message to me, my wife and son, or do I have more responsibility?

    Also, it amazes me at how everything continues normal. The spirit world is in upheaval, yet people and things continue on normally. It is strange, yet I suppose one could think - well what do we expect - God has been with us always.
     
  12. PoliticalDebris

    PoliticalDebris New Member

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    I have been trying to ask people what the numbers 1157 mean. So far I think I have gotten one frightening answer. But I will wait.
     
  13. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Biblical speaking, it means nothing.

    While I am sure a numerologist could assign meaning, the Bible commands us to stay away from numerology.

    So, for a Christian, it means a demon was trying to deceive you or maybe
    a plane had been doing some sky writing.

    Yours is not a unique story. Demons have done this to people to destroy them throughout history. It never ends well for those who pursue it.

    My advice is to recognize this is demonic and drop it. Get on with our life.
     
  14. Willy

    Willy Pro Poster

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    We live in a spiritual battleground. The devil is going about seeking whom he can devour. In Scripture, He is referred to as the god of this world and the prince of the power of the air.

    So, be aware of this and the battle that rages about you and for you. Pray for discernment.
     

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