1. We strive to be a place where there can be honest discussion, debate and fellowship. The rules are few so you can speak your mind. We know we are living in tough times and we hope to share answers and help with each other. Please join us.
    Dismiss Notice

the 2 witnesses

Discussion in 'General Talk' started by Jessie, Apr 6, 2015.

  1. Jessie

    Jessie Pro Poster

    Messages:
    394
    revelation ch 11:5

    5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

    this came up and I've always wondered its meaning...
    as they are human would they be something else as well?
     
  2. Lee Delivered

    Lee Delivered New Member

    Messages:
    40
    Gender:
    Male
    The Two witnesses are given divine power over the earth.
    No they are not mere humans anymore, these two have been in heaven for some time and have been for such a long time in the presence of The Lord God Almighty. They are in Human form but yet not entirely human either. They will have full knowledge of future events and all prophecy concerning the future. Some believe these two are Moses and Elijah that were on the mount of transfiguration in Matthew 17:1-3
     
  3. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,556
    Gender:
    Male
    Actually they are entirely human, Enoch and Elijah. The only two humans taken while still alive to Heaven. The Bible even tells us Elijah is coming to prepare the way for the Second Coming of Christ with Israel.

    Yes, Moses and Elijah were on the mount. But Moses had already died, no flesh. Neither Enoch or Elijah have died, but both will at Mid Trib. Angels, etc,, do not die.

    No one dies twice. There is a big distinction between resurrection and resuscitation.

    In the OT we see the spirit of a prophet rise out of Hell when summoned. He did not have flesh either.

    As for the power they wield, you see OT Prophets wielding power as well beyond the normal human ability.

    God can gift anyone in anyway he wishes. But they remain human.

    They are also called the Two Lampstands. Lampstands represent covenants. They represent the New Covenant to Israel and Judah.

    They are called the Two Olive Trees as well. Olive trees produce Olive oil which burns in lamps. There are seven lamps (angels) associated with every lampstand.

    You see the angels at work in Revelation.

    The Holy Spirit is the oil, so it is the Holy Spirit working through the Two in the Covenant.

    So, back to the original point, the two Witnesses are Enoch and Elijah fulfilling some of the most dramatic roles in the Bible.
     
  4. Lee Delivered

    Lee Delivered New Member

    Messages:
    40
    Gender:
    Male
    Those are good points, all I know is that I will be glad to see them if I am still here on earth at that time, because it means Jesus is that much closer to taking me home.
     
  5. Lee Delivered

    Lee Delivered New Member

    Messages:
    40
    Gender:
    Male
    And if no one dies twice then Lazarus after being raised from the dead, must have been translated to heaven and did not die twice.
     
  6. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,556
    Gender:
    Male
    That is why I put the statement in about resuscitation vs resurrection,

    Read John 11
    If Lazarus truly died, at the time, his spirit would have either gone immediately to Heaven or the Hell. But it didn't or he would have remembered.

    Also, if so, the the Bible lies, because he would have died twice, as all those others in similar circumstances.

    But the Bible neither lies or contradicts itself. So, what is the answer?

    So what is death? Is it one definition or many? Many, as dealt with here.

    As long as your body can be restarted and you retain your spirit, you are dead in appearance but not dead in fact, as in no coming back.

    God can and has prolonged people, like Lazarus, in that state, a number of times.

    Once truly gone, it takes resurrection to put one back in their bodies, including putting their bodies back together as well.

    Thousands, if not more, have 'died.' and come back.

    The problem is, as per the article, death is not a clearly defined term when it comes to physical death outside of the Bible. Ones spirit is either in their body or in Heaven or Hell. If any the body, they can be resusitated at time before it departs. If not, game over, your gone from this earth.

    To date, only Christ has been resurrected:
    You cannot find one single person in the Bible said to have been resurrected, to date, but Christ.
     
  7. Lee Delivered

    Lee Delivered New Member

    Messages:
    40
    Gender:
    Male
    John11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

    (John 11:39) "Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days."

    When the body decay it start to smell, or stinketh. that would indicate that by Lazarus being dead for four days was truly dead, meaning the body was without the soul present. For me when Jesus says (Lazarus is dead ) that is good enough for me, I will believe Jesus that dead means dead in the truest science of the word.
     
  8. Lee Delivered

    Lee Delivered New Member

    Messages:
    40
    Gender:
    Male
    1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep
    This means that Jesus was the first to be resurrected ( without sin as a first fruits unto God, spotless and without blemish.)

    Lazarus even so that he was resurrected first was null and void as a first fruits unto God, because Lazarus was not without spot or blemish, Lazarus was not without sin, and there for could not be used as a first fruits unto God.

    Please point out to me where in the Bible it says that anyone was resuscitation from the dead, I looked it up in the King James Bible and could not find the word resuscitation from the dead.

    Definition of (resuscitate) to bring someone who is unconscious, not breathing, or close to death back to a conscious or active state again.

    Not the case with Lazarus he smelled rotten and had been dead for four days and Jesus said he was dead.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2015
  9. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    293
    Lee,

    If what you believe is true about Lazarus then explain Hebrews 9:27 because Lazarus would have died again making Hebrews 9:27 a lie.
     
  10. Lee Delivered

    Lee Delivered New Member

    Messages:
    40
    Gender:
    Male
    Hebrews 9:27 deals with refuting reincarnation. where you die and come back as something else depending on your level of karma. Hebrews 9:27 is telling us that reincarnation is not true, and that you die once and then the judgment, you do not get to come back and live your life over again to build up your karma until you enter into heaven.
    But Jesus can bring back some one from the dead without contradicting Hebrews 9:27.
    And Lazarus very well might have been translated into heaven so that he did not have to die more that one time. The Bible does not say that Lazarus died again a second time and even if he did, The fact that the Lord Jesus walked on water (Mt 14:26) or that Elisha made the head of an axe float (2 Kings:6:6) did not overturn the law of gravity, Gravity is still Gravity. The Lord does what he wills. Jesus can make a exception to the rule any time He wants, it is His Book.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2015
  11. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,556
    Gender:
    Male
    Where does it say there actually was smell? It does not.
     
  12. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,556
    Gender:
    Male
    Firstfruits is a term used in many applications. It means the first of and is not about blood sacrifice.
    Why do you keep pushing the KJV.? I mainly use the NIV and NASB, but don't keep naming them. Just curious.

    No, you don't find the word. But neither can you find Rapture and other theological terms we use all the time in Bible discussion. So that is a moot point.

    It does not say Lazarus, or those raised up after Christ's resurrection or the others were resurrected, either, so that is a false demand to make.
    Well, in the time of Christ people were hopelessly dead that today are brought back to life. CPR, shocking a heart back to working, surgery that was unknown back then etc.

    God can do what God wishes. If he does not want your body to rot or you spirit to leave your body yet, that is the way it will be. Therefore you are basically sleeping, to use their terms, or in a coma, etc, to use modern day terms.

    Are you aware there are drugs that can make you appear dead? Or a few that can slow their bodies to the point you cannot tell they are alive?

    How about documented cases where corpses have 'woke up' in morgues, etc?

    Or graves that have been opened and the insides of caskets where scraped by fingernails of people trying to get out?

    You are trying to oversimplify this was too much.

    Die once and then judgment means your spirit has moved on. You are not recovering from that. Just as Christ being the only resurrected says his spirit was gone and came back to his body, dead as it was. But it was then glorified, as will all when resurrected.
    It does not say he smelled in fact.

    As for being translated to Heaven, that is a huge assumption with any basis in fact. Never happened in the Bible an zero mentions of any raised doing so, and there were a lot of them in the Bible.

    It says die once only. It says only Christ has been resurrected to date.

    You are creating contradictions with your claims.Either the Bible is true at all times or we cannot trust it in anything.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2015
  13. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    293
    OK. So based on that belief how does one determine that which is to be taken as an exception and that which is incorrect interpretation.

    Anyone can claim "Jesus made an exception." whenever there is a contradiction in their belief.

    How does one test the truth of this claim?
     
    CoreIssue likes this.
  14. Lee Delivered

    Lee Delivered New Member

    Messages:
    40
    Gender:
    Male
    Your Won NIV says John 11:39 But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a (bad odor),

    Yes you are right on that, but in the case of Lazarus Jesus said her was dead, and then he had been dead for four days, and had a bad oder, because he had started to decay.

    then what do you think bad oder coming out of the tomb means.

    Because The NIV has over 1000 verses removed out of the Bible, and twist the scriptures so badly, The NIV contradicts it self all over the place. The NIV is nothing of the Book of lies. Only The King James Bible is the true word of God, even the New King James Bible is corrupt. There is only one real and true word of God ( The King James Bible.) and if any one gets angry when they hear you reading the KJV. then they are of a different spirit not of God.

    Here is a list of Verses that have been completely taken out of the NIV Bible,
    They have been deleted, You will not find them.
    Matt 17:21
    Matt 18:11
    Mark 7:16
    Mark 9:44
    Mark 9:46
    Mark 11:26
    Mark 15:28
    Luke 17:36
    Luke 23:17
    John 5:4
    Acts 8:37
    Acts 15:34
    Acts 24:7
    Acts 28:29
    Rom. 16:24
    2 Cor. 13:14
    James 1:8
    Here is the NIV Bible on Line, Type in each verse and try to find it, you will get this page.
    http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/


    Then type in the verse before it and the verse after it, you will find those.
    That is why I will only read out of the King James Bible, Nothing has been taken out
    of the KJV.

    simple, he who is controlled by the Holy Ghost.
     
  15. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,556
    Gender:
    Male
    This need to be here for all interesting, pro and con.

    The KJVO thinking is covered there.Including the issues of deleting from or add to the Bible.

    So, yep, all of us, keep that separate discussion separate.

    The Holy Ghost issue is between you and CTZonEdit.All I will say is in the Greek, it is not ghost, which applies a dead person, but Spirit.

    Seeing you added video, I am moving that post to the appropriate forum.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2015
  16. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    293
    You say, He who is controlled by the Holy Ghost?
    How does one validate that claim when one claims that "He is controlled by the Holy Ghost?"

    How do you test and verify such a claim?
     
  17. Lee Delivered

    Lee Delivered New Member

    Messages:
    40
    Gender:
    Male
    I guess it is a little different for everyone, You will know you have the Holy Spirit when you fell this very powerful and warm and loving presence wash over you when you read the BIBLE KJV of course. Like your eyes are too tired from reading but you still don't want to stop because the Spirit is driving you on. You will know by the way you feel when you listen to your favorite praise and worship songs. You will know by the way you feel when you cry when you see people getting saved and it like your eyes are crying but it's not you who are doing the crying, that there is some presence inside you that is crying.
     
  18. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,556
    Gender:
    Male
    Lee, you are derailing the topic, again. The discussion is about the Two Witnesses.

    Stating you are one that believes feelings come from the Holy Spirit using the KJV to reveal truth is one thing. We get it, really. But trying to teach others how you do it is something else all together.

    So I moved your post and gave it a new title. Still on the board, just not in this thread.

    Please stay on topic. I really cannot keep splitting things off. It disrupts the thread.
     

Share This Page