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Roman Catholicism

Discussion in 'Christian Cults' started by CoreIssue, Aug 11, 2014.

  1. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    It does not matter what other countries do, the issue is you claimed Israel had a queen and I asked you to post the verses backing that claim.

    The Throne of David is the only relevant throne in prophecy. Christ sits on that throne in the future as King.

    Jesus had brothers also born of Mary. They are not princes any more than she is queen.

    Now, please post the verses defending your position Israel ever had a queen.
     
  2. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    God promised David his throne (i.e. his kingdom) would last for ever (2Sam 7:11-16). At the Annunciation the Angel says to Mary that her son (Jesus) “will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” (Lk 1:32-33). Jesus kingdom is the Davidic kingdom and has the characteristics of the Davidic kingdom. One of these characteristics is the role of king’s mother.

    #1 In a monarchical system a woman may have the title Queen for one of three reasons.

    We can see examples of this in both the recent history in the UK and in the Bible. I will give examples from the Bible.

    1. The woman is a ruler in her own right. For example the Queen of Sheba (see 1Kg 10)

    2. The woman is the wife of the reigning king. In the book of Esther, King Ahasuerus had many concubines, but gave one of them the honour of being designated Queen, first Vashti, but then Esther.

    3. The woman is the mother of the reigning king. In the kingdom of David the king might have multiple wives, so the practice was to give the title Queen Mother to the mother of the king. This was instituted by Solomon the son of David.

    We see this first established by Solomon when he greets Bathsheba who comes to ask a favour. He pays her homage and sits her on a throne at his right hand (a position of honour) (1Kg 2:19)

    After Solomon the kingdom splits into the Northern kingdom (Israel) and the Southern kingdom (Judah). After this there were 20 kings in Israel before the deportation to Assyria. For none of these is the mother of the king mentioned.

    There were 19 kings in Judah after Solomon before they were deported to Babylon. In 17 of these the king’s mother is given, usually after introducing the king, with the words “his mother’s name was ……”. This in itself shows that the king’s mother was a significant figure.

    For example:
    "Now Rehoboam the son of Solomon reigned in Judah. Rehoboam was forty-one years old when he began to reign, and he reigned seventeen years in Jerusalem, the city which the LORD had chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, to put his name there. His mother's name was Naamah the Ammonitess." (1Kg 14:21)

    "Now in the eighteenth year of King Jeroboam the son of Nebat, Abijam began to reign over Judah. 2 He reigned for three years in Jerusalem. His mother's name was Maacah the daughter of Abishalom." (1Kg 15:1)

    The mother of the king was referred to as the queen mother (1Kg15:13 (& 2Chr 15:16), 2Kg 10:13, Jer 13:18, Jer 29:2.). Note the Hebrew is gebirah - queen. The KJV just says queen but as she is the mother of the king more modern translations say queen mother

    #2 This role of queen mother was an established role in the kingdom.

    “He also removed Maacah his mother from being queen mother because she had an abominable image made for Asherah” (1Kg 15:13).

    #3 The queen mother sat on a throne at the right of her son

    “So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat [throne] brought for the king's mother; and she sat on his right.”(1Kg 2:19)

    #4 The queen mother had authority.

    Firstly she sat on the right of the king which is the position of honour and authority.

    Secondly there is one particularly interesting woman Athalia, who was the mother of Ahazier the sixth king of Judah. After her son was killed, she killed all the royal family (except one baby who was hidden from her) and assumed power in her own right. She ruled for six years until she was killed and her grandson Joash installed as king at the age of seven. She would not have been able to do that if she was not in a recognised position of authority to start with. (2Kg 11)

    We can also see the important position of the queen mother in Jeremiah 13:18-20
    “Say to the king and the queen mother: ‘Take a lowly seat, for your beautiful crown has come down from your head. The cities of the Negeb are shut up, with none to open them; all Judah is taken into exile, wholly taken into exile. "Lift up your eyes and see those who come from the north. Where is the flock that was given you, your beautiful flock?’”

    Three points to note here.

    Firstly Jeremiah is told to address both the king and queen mother. They are both to be punished by God.

    Secondly both the king and queen mother are to come down from their thrones and to lose their crowns. They are both royalty in the kingdom.

    Thirdly God says to them: “Where is the flock that was given you [plural], your beautiful flock?”

    They are both responsible for the flock, the sheep – i.e. the people that God entrusted to them. God had given the queen mother responsibilities for the people, not just the king. That does not mean that the queen mother was equal in authority to the king. The authority she had was derived from and under the king. She was still subject to him.

    #5 Jesus is the true Davidic king with an eternal kingdom.
    That kingdom is based in Heaven.

    “Jesus answered, ‘My kingdom does not belong to this world.’” (Jn 18:36)

    “Then I saw the heavens opened, and there was a white horse; its rider was (called) “Faithful and True.” He judges and wages war in righteousness…….. He has a name written on his cloak and on his thigh, “King of kings and Lord of lords.” (Rev 19:11-16)

    #6 Mary is the mother of Jesus
    As the mother of the King of Heaven, Mary has the right to the title Queen of Heaven.

    As such she has some responsibility for the flock.

    [No wonder Jesus couldn’t offer James and John the seat at his right hand (Mt 28:23). It was already allocated.]

    We also read in Revelation:
    "A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars." (Rev 12:1).

    This can taken to be a reference to Mary – “and she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (Rev 12:5), which is Jesus. She has on her head a crown – as do queens.

    Psalm 45
    Psalm 45 is a prophecy of the Messiah’s reign and is addressed to the king and line 9 says: at you right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir. We have seen that in the Davidic kingdom the queen sits, or stands, at the king’s right hand (1Kg 2:19).

    [Also in Rev 21:1 the woman is clothed with the sun (i.e golden coloured) just as the queen here is clothed in gold of Ophir.]

    Elizabeth
    Finally there is a hint of Mary being the gebirah in Lk 1:43 when Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit exclaims “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Elizabeth has recognised that the child in Mary’s womb is God, the promised Messiah, the Son of David and that Mary is therefore the gebirah. She is astonished that such an important person should come to her.
     
  3. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    I am not going to address your trying to reference anything outside of Israel since it is irrelevant to Israel.

    Nothing about a queen there.
    Nothing about a queen there.
    Now you are going into assumption. It is about lineage.
    There is no role stated in the Bible.
    Sheba is not Israel.
    Persia, not Israel.
    Verses please.
    We see this first established by Solomon when he greets Bathsheba who comes to ask a favour. He pays her homage and sits her on a throne at his right hand (a position of honour) (1Kg 2:19)
    But never names her or is she every called queen of Israel.
    Never called queen.

    Brothers, uncles, etc were also significant figures.
    Judah, not Israel..
    Never called queen.
    Never called queen and many people had authority.and never had a crown.
    The Throne of Christ moves to the New Jerusalem on the New Earth after the destruction of this earth.

    Only Christ is referred to here.

    There are also thrones for those come with him at the Second Coming and 12 thrones for Israel before the throne of God in Heaven after the Rapture.

    You totally do not undersand thrones in the Bible
    Not according to the Bible.
    There is no Matthew 28:23
    It is Israel, the 12 tribes, etc.
    It says Bride, not queen.
    Elizabeth
    Finally there is a hint of Mary being the gebirah in Lk 1:43 when Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit exclaims “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Elizabeth has recognised that the child in Mary’s womb is God, the promised Messiah, the Son of David and that Mary is therefore the gebirah. She is astonished that such an important person should come to her.[/QUOTE]
    Mother of Christ's humanity, not his divinity.

    Still waiting for you to provide a verse for any Queen of Israel.
     
  4. Jessie

    Jessie Pro Poster

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    As the mother of the King of Heaven, Mary has the right to the title Queen of Heaven.

    that is presuming. no where in scripture does it say such a thing.


    This "queen of heaven" was not a title mary would want. OT shows it to be paganism.
     
  5. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Excellent point, Jessie.

    Queen of Heaven

    The RCC adopted and adapted many pagan practices and titles. Queen of Heaven, Pope, holy water, prayer beads, nuns and Easter (Istar), just to name a few.
     
  6. Lucia Magdalena

    Lucia Magdalena New Member

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    Denial of the Trinity, meaning the absolute equality, power, knowledge and omnipresence of the three distinct united persons of the Godhead.

    I grew up catholic. I was never thought to believe otherwise, God is the Holy Trinity. I wasn't taught to deny that, but I was taught to also pray to saints and angels as well. I agree that people shouldn't have to pray to anyone else but God. I just want to mention that there is no teaching of denying the Holy Trinity. Please correct me if I misunderstood your statement.

    Denies salvation is via grace alone by faith in Christ via his substitutionary death and resurrection. There is no other way
    .

    Alright, but what about James 2:19-20?
    "You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can't you see that faith without good deeds is useless?"(NLV)
    Faith without good acts is dead.

    Why would Mary being titled Queen of Heaven and Mother of God make her a god?

    Growing up in a catholic home, I was never taught to ask Mary for forgiveness. We were taught to ask her help in praying to God for whatever it may be. That way there are more people praying for the same thing. For instance, if I need to pray for my fathers recovery from an illness, I'd ask the Virgin Mary to help us in prayer all aiming to God alone. I would like to keep pointing out that this is coming through my personal experience, I was taught in all ways catholic.

    You need to actually read the whole article where not agreeing with the Bible was stated as a reeason for 18% leaving.

    I agree. I was once a Catholic and now I am not. I am the black sheep in my family and I am proud. I am trying to convince my family to open their eyes and to read the bible on their own. Catholics are not taught to bring their own bible to mass (aka service). Instead there is a rewritten text of specific bible scriptures that they are assigned to reading that week. Once I started reading the scriptures on my own, I had many questions. So I went ahead and asked my youth minister and deacons about the Book ok Job. It's my favorite book in the Old Testament (so far). They had no idea what I was talking about. The lack of knowledge regarding scripture disappointed me and made me realize that the only practice what they are told. Ever since, I stopped attending the Catholic Church. It is one of the main reasons I stopped attending.

    Ps. Sorry for the awkward layout. I don't know how to tag the quotes I'd like to respond too. I just copy an pasted the ones I wanted to elaborate on. I'll try to figure it out.
     
  7. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    See post#22. The title is biblically based.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2015
  8. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    Have you any evidence for these erroneous claims?
     
  9. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    That discussion is a separate thread. We need to finish this thread first.
     
  10. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    No it isn't. Read the reply to that claims.

    Still waiting for your proof, not assumptions or read ins.
     
  11. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    I made a reply but someone deleted it.
     
  12. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    I have had to move, split etc your posts into new threads. I told you to start posting in the correct place as I was not going to continue to do so. It creates too much confusion.

    I did delete one post because, once again, you started another topic within a topic.

    As with post 31, you tried to start another issue within this thread.

    Stay on topic. We need to finish it, first. All not finishing a thread with either proof of concession of error does is make you look like you do not want to admit being wrong.

    Reply to this topic..
     
  13. Jessie

    Jessie Pro Poster

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    no it is not. http://www.gotquestions.org/Queen-of-Heaven.html
     
  14. Jessie

    Jessie Pro Poster

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    if the above post is in the wrong place please move it ..
     
  15. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    Yes it is. As to your link, this is a discussion forum not a link posting forum.
     
  16. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    I was not discussing the Queen of Israel.

    I was discussing the Queen of the Davidic Kingdom. After Solomon, Israel split into the Northern Kingdom and the Southern (Judah). Jesus was of the tribe of Judah, the promised King from the line of David (Lk 1:32).

    I have given the evidence. As you said over the issue of cults - I will leave it for others to read and decide.
     
  17. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    David was the King of Israel when Israel and Judah were on nation.

    In the Millennial kingdom the two will be reunited and again be Israel.

    The Davidic Covenant and throne is about Israel, not Judah.

    It is the 12 tribes of Israel, both in the OT under David and in Revelation as well.

    As already proven, there never was a Queen of Israel or, in fact Judah, and never will be.
     
  18. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    Well if you say so then it must be so!

    Not much of a debater are you - just a lot of dogmatic statements.
     
  19. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    No, the Bible says it is so.

    Once again you try to put out RCC claims as proof. I rely on the Bible and historical facts concerning Israel and Judah.

    You cannot win a debate using rhetoric.

    I take it we are done, at least for now.
     
  20. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    In all of this discussion on the Queen of Heaven YOU HAVE NOT POSTED ONE SINGLE BIBLE VERSE.
     

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