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Roman Catholicism

Discussion in 'Christian Cults' started by CoreIssue, Aug 11, 2014.

  1. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    I fully understand that Catholicism is considered the largest Christian denomination in the world. But is it? Or is it the largest Christian Cult in the world?

    Right up front I need to make it clear there are some born-again in the Catholic Church. But, they are not considered "good Catholics" because they do not accept or question many of the teachings of the RCC. Most do end up leaving the denomination.

    The RCC is ancient Roman Paganism in a Christian cloak. Their garb is the garb of the ancient Roman Pontifex Maximus and College of Pontiffs The Pope and Cardinals are from the ancient offices of ancient Roman religion.

    The ancient Romans, when they conquered a new area, would absorb the local religions into their system. The RCC continues that practice by absorbing believes and practices into the RCC. That is how they got their Saints, Mary, prayer beads, holy water and more.

    Looking at the definition of a Christian Cult, here are the reasons the RCC qualifies:
    Mary has been promoted to Queen of Heaven and Mother of God. She is also of virgin birth. That makes her a god as well. These claims do not exist in the Bible and Christ rejected giving her an elevated status in the Bible.

    Where did this come from? The RCC absorbing the religions that practiced goddess worship.

    As well, in the ancient Roman religion, they had the god of this, that and the other. Substitute "saint" for "god" and you have the RCC.

    So, then Roman religion had a pantheon of gods and the RCC has their own pantheon of gods, including Mary, Saints and even angels.

    They also have demi-gods, their priests, who have the power to forgive sins on Christ's behalf.

    Problem is the Bible says have no other gods, only God can forgive sins and there is only one intercessor, Jesus Christ.
    In the RCC salvation is not by grace alone, but by works. There are, in example, 7 mandatory sacraments to be saved.

    At the beginning of the RCC, which was centuries after Christ, there were no sacraments. Then the number increased over time to over double what there is today. Then it decreased to the current 7.

    The RCC concept of sacraments does not exist in the Bible. The Bible says it is by grace alone through faith in Christ, the Biblical Christ.

    Good works are the result of salvation, not the cause of salvation, per the Bible

    No man on this earth has the power to define salvation for God or forgive sins. The Bible lays it out very clearly, so there is no excuse for believing anything else.

    There is no way around it, the RCC is a cult. Strict adherence to their beliefs will put a person in Hell.
     
    roman8 likes this.
  2. clark thompson

    clark thompson Advanced Poster

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    Their be Christians that are Catholic but they need prayer because the Catholic church is apostate.
     
  3. roman8

    roman8 Advanced Poster

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    The Roman Catholic church is not christian, they never were. There may be those that are mislead and still stay , but they cannot read the word of God or they would leave. I have a friend who will not leave the RCC, our relationship is now very strained and she is angered easily by anyone telling her that the RCC is not christian. She is choosing to stay and not investigate the things she has been told. She claims to read the bible , but yet the layer of dust on it tells me she is not. The RCC appeals to the flesh, with the rituals and ornate decorations and the works. It does create a feeling , she claims she feels Gods presence there. I believe many feel that way.
     
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  4. Willy

    Willy Pro Poster

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    RCC does not hold the Bible as the final Word of God to lost man. In that they make a grave error.

    Have had many RCC friends over the years. One very early on was saved by reading over and over Galatians 2:21 "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

    That one verse broke down the "wall of works" that RCC had built around that dear woman.

    Most of my other RCC friends seem intoxicated with the mystical. Whereas I would like to talk about The Lord Jesus and what He accomplished on the Cross, they would like to talk about the ghost of their dead sister that they saw in a farmhouse window when they were a kid (or something along the same lines) ...

    Hmm ... just noticed the pattern on my toast looks a little like ... :wow:
     
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  5. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    At first read you would appear to have given arguments as to why you disagree with the Catholic Church. However when this is examined more closely it is 99% personal opinions backed up by no evidence.

    Let me show you :

    A personal opinion given without any evidence.

    A personal opinion given without any evidence.

    A personal opinion given without any evidence.


    The Catholic Church does not deny the Trinity. It full subscribes to the Nicene Creed (as amended at the Council of Constantinople in 381 + the Filioque clause) that most Protestant groups adhere to.


    God promoted Mary to Queen of Heaven and Mother of God.

    The Catholic Church does not teach Mary is of virgin birth.

    Why would Mary being titled Queen of Heaven and Mother of God make her a god?

    A personal opinion given without any evidence.

    A personal opinion given without any evidence.

    Why substitute “saint” for “god”? You give no good reason. There is no logic there.

    The claim “the RCC has their own pantheon of gods, including Mary, Saints and even angels” is a personal opinion given without any evidence.

    A personal opinion given without any evidence.

    Biblical – John 20:23

    We do not have other gods.

    Ultimately yes, but God works through men and he can delegate that authority to men – Jn 20:23.

    A personal opinion given without any evidence.

    Leave out the word substitutionary and the Catholic Church teaches exactly that (i.e. salvation is via grace alone by faith in Christ via his death and resurrection)

    A personal opinion given without any evidence.

    A personal opinion given without any evidence.

    A personal opinion given without any evidence.

    The concept of sacraments does exist in the Bible. I think you do not understand what sacraments are.

    And yes, the Catholic Church teaches we are saved by grace alone through faith in Christ.

    “Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” (my emboldening)
    (Council of Trent, Session 6, chapter VI)

    Agreed

    Agreed

    Unless God gives him the authority – Jn 20:23

    No Catholic doctrine contradicts scripture and no scripture contradicts Catholic doctrine. The proviso is that scripture is properly interpreted.

    Just plain wrong.

    I realise that some of my responses are my opinion given without evidence but as you made the initial claims I think the ball is in your court to provide scriptural and historical evidence to back up your opinions first.

    You said in Is Catholicism a Cult - "I strongly suggest one key topic at a time for clarity." I think that is a good suggestion.
     
  6. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Besides the Catholics I personally know who left after studying the Bible, read here.

    That is evidence, not personal opinion.
    Pope

    The College of Cardinals is the adaption of the College of Pontiffs of Pagan Rome

    The College of Pontiffs each represented a religion absorbed into the the Empire. When the RCC rose to was appointed the Church of the Roman Empire by the Emporer's decree, centuries after Christ, the RCC did its version of inclusing by absorbing Pagan practices and beliefs. Among those are holy water, Marionology, saints (demi-gods). prayer beads and more.

    The Pope's eagle was a adaption of the Roman Legions Eagle gods.
    Mary
    The Bible makes it quite clear after Jesus was born Mary had sex and bore orther children.

    There is no mention of "Queen of Heaven," etc. in the Bible.

    That is one example. If you wish to try to justify any of the above practices, Biblically, show me.

    Peter was not the first Pope and it was never said the Church was built upon him and he was appointed leader.
    No response since you did not give the full quote.
    Says who? The RCC? The Bible does not.
    There are Catholic theologans who do.
    Because she has been given the power to forgive sins and more, something only Christ can do.
    No, scriptural.

    If you wish to argue that point provide the verses.
    No, documented history.
    Yes, there is. That give the RCC to power to elevate people.

    Fact is the Bible teaches all born again Christians are saints. Saint does not mean elevated, it means set apart for God, which is what salvation does.
    Just like with the Roman Pagan religions, saints are the saint of this, that and the other. Mary is now Queen of Heaven.
    There is no special priesthood in the NT Body of Christ. Only Christ can forgive sins.

    The RCC hierarchy does not exist in the Bible.
    When the Disciples died, no one replaced them in their roles. The answered to no Pope.

    There is no command in the NT for any church to obey any particular elite group of men. No priesthood. No universal church structure.

    It was all local churches with local leaders chosen by the local congregations.

    There is no mention of anyone in the NT ask for sin to be forgiven by them or them forgiving anyone's sin. But, there are verses dealing with the how, when and why to forgive those who sin against you personally.

    The Bible always harmonizes. Nothing in it harmonizes with the RCC on these issues.
    You do. You pray to and worship Mary, in example.
    Yes, God works through men, but not as you are implying or RCC theology teaches.
    Here is your proof.
    You cannot leave the word out. The Bible states it.

    As well, the RCC says grace allows the works that save. The Bible says there is no salvation by works. That works result from salvation, but do not give salvation
    Nope, Biblical.
    Surprising you would even try to say that.
    Nope, history.
    I do understand. They are works demanded by the RCC.
    Already answered.

    Already answered.

    If the RCC truly believed what the Bible says, there would be no confessionals, no teaching of penance and no teaching of purgatory.

    The verse does not say what you claim.
    Already cited so many things the RCC practices that does not exist in the Bible.

    Even modern RCC linguists concede it was erroneous to claim the Bible say the Church was built on Peter. But, for them, transition, etc, is more meaningful than the Bible.

    It is obvious you are not a Bible student, but a student of RCC theology.
    Your opinion not backed by facts.

    I did. Now, your turn.
     
  7. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    I haven't got much time left so I will answer a many as I can and leave the rest until I return

    In the list of Reasons for leaving Catholicism there are 20 reasons listed. Not one of them is that they left after studying the Bible

    Yes, I know what Wikipedia says. What you give no evidence for is your claim "The RCC is ancient Roman Paganism in a Christian cloak. Their garb is the garb of the ancient Roman Pontifex Maximus and College of Pontiffs The Pope and Cardinals are from the ancient offices of ancient Roman religion. " That is pure suppositionn on your part.

    Again that is just your opinion. You provide no evidence

    What Pope's eagle?

    If it did you would be able to give a passage. But you haven't

    As I'm short of time I'll spare you the long version. Here is the short one:
    Jesus is the King of Heaven (Rev 19:11-16)
    Mary is Jesus' mother & in the Davidic Kingdom the Queen is the mother of the King.
    Therefore Mary is the Queen of Heaven

    Holy Water - "And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel...." (Num 5:17, KJV)

    Yes he was and Jesus said Peter was the rock (Kephas) on which he would build his Church. (Mt 16:18)

    I gave the exact quote you gave in your OP


    God made Mary the mother of Jesus
    Jesus is God
    Therefore Mary is the mother of God.

    See earlier for Queen of Heaven

    ]
    Evidence please.

    Evidence please.


    Evidence please.


    Ahem!!! You made the claim. You provide the evidence.

    Evidence please


     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 4, 2015
  8. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    You need to actually read the whole article where not agreeing with the Bible was stated as a reeason for 18% leaving.

    Also, all of those positions you listed were for local churches only. I repeat, no universal hierarchy for all churches can be found in the Bible. There is no Pope, no Cardinals, etc

    The Roman Catholic Church was a political creation centuries later. It did not exist at the time of the Apostles.

    You are already just repeating yourself.And you are asking me to given negative proof claims to prove the RCC didn't exist, along with other of your false claims.

    A negative proof claim is saying something was not said hence it was true. A negative demand is demanding Biblical proof something is not in the Bible.

    The fact it cannot be found in the Bible is proof

    I repeat, there is no leadership role above local in the Bible, but there are many local churches mentioned. Nor is there any Pope etc.

    You are trying to prove the authority and authorization of roles never mentioned. And their powers..

    Time to focus down to one thread on one topic. Go with the salvation one. If you cannot prove your case the rest falls apart on its own.
     
  9. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    You see - another personal opinion without evidence.

    Sorry - you don't like personal opinion. Let's say it is an "assertion without evidence", but remember the maxim: "That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
     
  10. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    OK, I see you have started yet another thread. So let us focus in it, not multiple threads.
     
  11. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    Yes,

    there is no point in continuing this one as you refuse to provide evidence for your assertions and reply to the points I make.

    But will it be any better under the new thread?

    BTW - I am involved in a family crisis and will have to go away again on Tuesday for a few days (now Sunday evening UK time). But I will reply while I can and come back to the topic later.
     
  12. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Sigh, I was trying to be polite and not point out your false accusations and misleading statements..

    I also see you cherry picked definitions and usages that you use to try to prove your claims.

    Well, here is from a site that is not real friendly to Christianity in general. They do not support your claims about or your selective postings.

    Now, please, let us move on to a more provable discussion on salvation.

    Sorry to hear about the family issues. Take care.
     
  13. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    Look! It's your own links that are proving you false.

    The site you link to fails to support your claim and clearly classes the Catholic Church as a Denomination not a cult.

    As I said in the other thread, nowhere does it give a definition that would include the Catholic Church. In fact it includes the Catholic Church under
    Meaning of the word "denomination:"
    Here is the whole quote:



    It also says:
     
  14. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Let others read and decide for themselves.
     
  15. rstrats

    rstrats New Member

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    Mungo,
    re: "Mary is Jesus' mother & in the Davidic Kingdom the Queen is the mother of the King. Therefore Mary is the Queen of Heaven"


    If anyone is to be the queen, wouldn't it be the bride/wife of the Messiah (Rev 21:9)?
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2015
  16. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Making anyone queen places them on level with God.

    David had wives, none were queens.

    That is why there is not nor ever will be a queen.
     
  17. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    Why?

    It started with Solomon because the mother of the King was the Queen (Mother)

    That's why you are wrong.
     
  18. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    If you read the history of the Davidic kingdom in the OT you will see that it is the mother of the king who is queen.
     
  19. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Just post the verses.

    Further, it has nothing to do with Mary.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2015
  20. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    You haven't answered my question as to why making someone queen puts them on the same level with God.

    Let me help you out a bit on this. It doesn't.

    In Britain where I live we have a monarchy. It's only a constitutional monarchy now but once the monarch (king or queen) had real power. The spouse of the Monarch didn't have any such power. Being the queen of a king, who was the monarch, did not put her on the same level with the king. She had whatever authority (if any) the king chose to give her.

    At the moment we have a queen. Her spouse (Prince Philip) has no constitutional authority.

    Mary, as Queen of heaven, is not on the same level as God.

    Yes it has something to do with Mary as she is the mother of the King!
     

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