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Rapture on Pentecost 2021 - Wheat Harvest

Discussion in 'Rapture Beliefs' started by revcheleven, Oct 10, 2014.

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Is it possible to know when Jesus will come back for His Church

Poll closed Nov 28, 2014.
  1. Yes

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. No

    66.7%
  3. Only if it is in agreeance with what the Bible says.

    33.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. revcheleven

    revcheleven New Member

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    ...Ten days later...

    The Feast of First fruits as you rightly say was fulfilled by Jesus at His resurrection should not be confused with the Feast of Weeks (aka Pentecost).

    compare...

    ...with....

     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2014
  2. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    You need to read. BOTH verses state firstfruits.

    Pentecost was the celebration of the harvest where the firstfruits, and only firstfruits, where offered. The rest of the harvest was not offered.

    If you are trying to claim it is something else, explain what you mean, because the verses are about firstfruits of the harvest. As well to Jews it is firstfruits and the giving of the Law.

    I don't want a bunch of verses with your spin on it. I want a simple, straight forward and short statement.
     
  3. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    I deleted your post because you went right back to preaching. You didn't even try to answer my question as stated above.

    Exactly what are you looking ti happen, in the future, that you see as the fulfillment of the feasts that have already been fulfilled.

    Tell me, in plain English, what will happen to fulfill them in your eyes?

    Do you realize you are saying the Bible is in error when it says all the feasts, Sabbaths and holy days are fulfilled already but you say that is wrong? Or only the Father knows but you date set?.

    Plan English, exactly what is going to happen, on this earth, in the future, to fulfill what you claimed is unfulfilled.

    No more diversions.
     
  4. revcheleven

    revcheleven New Member

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    Feast of Weeks (aka Pentecost) was fulfilled 50 days after Jesus rose from the dead by Acts Ch.2 proving that Jesus did not fulfill all the Feasts at His death.
     
  5. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Fulfilled what? Proving what? You just say things like this without any substance. Fulfilled what?

    I gave the verse stating Christ WAS the firstfuits of the Resurrection. There was no resurrection 50 days later.

    Firstfruits were given to God. Christ was given to God upon resurrection when he ascended to Heaven. Not 50 days later.

    Why? Because he completed all the feasts upon resurrection. It was over.

    The OT saints were not left in Paradise for 50 days. They accepted Christ and were made born-again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Otherwise they could not have ascended to Heaven.

    Those in Acts 2 were never called firstfruits. There is no reference about the Holy Spirit coming as part of Pentacost.

    The Mosaic Law, which contained the feasts, ended at the Cross.

    Pentecost was symbolic to the Jews. That was a powerful sign to them, but not a completion of any Mosaic Law feast requirement.

    Here are more, but not all, instances of being given as a sign, not as a feast. All after Acts 2.
    You try to claim not until Acts 2 and only then in a special way.

    It happened before and after Pentacost:

     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014
  6. revcheleven

    revcheleven New Member

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    Pentecost (aka Feast of Weeks/Shavuot) and First Fruits (for the Barley Harvest) are two different Feasts 50 days apart.

    The Firstfruits mentioned in Leviticus 23v10 is different to that mentioned in Leviticus 23v17&20. The first Firstfruits is for the Barley Harvest the second Firstfruits for the Wheat Harvest.
     
  7. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Still waiting for you tell me what is supposed to happen, now. What are waiting to see?
     
  8. revcheleven

    revcheleven New Member

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    The Feast of Weeks (aka Pentecost & Shavuot) was fulfilled by the Birth of the Church and will also be fulfilled by the Harpazo/Rapture of the Church. This is deterministic based on the 1335 days spoken of by Daniel.
    The Feast of Trumpets (Yom Teruah & Rosh Hashanah) will also have dual fulfillment's. It will mark the beginning of the Tribulation. It will also fulfill these other Jewish idioms for the day: The Hidden Day/The Day of Awe/The Day of Trumpets/Messiah’s Coronation/The Day of the Great Shout/The Day of the Awakening Blast but at a later date. I assume Jesus will be crowned as King on this day in 2025 (the year after the end of Daniel's Seventieth Week).
    The Day of Atonement will be fulfilled by the "Day of the LORD". I believe it will also be fulfilled by Revelation 20v7-10.
    The Feast of Tabernacles (booths/sukkot ) will be fulfilled by the millennial reign when Jesus dwells/tabernacles with us.

    But of course all this is speculation. Just as my Rapture date is speculation and needs to be supported by a Third Temple (between now and 30-May-2018) , Daily Sacrifice beginning again (30-May-2018), Abomination of Desolation (5-March-2021), Two Witnesses begin their Prophecy (31-March-2021) and then the Rapture (18-May-2021).

    I don't see the problem with date setting as it is something to aim at. As I understand it you believe timelines will be activated after the rapture..... correct? Date setting is not a sin. Making an educated guess is not breaking any commandments which you are making it out to be.
     
  9. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    That is your theory and complete unbacked by the Bible. The Bible says Christ, not any festival, is the origin of the Church.

    So, you are an Acts 2 believer.

    You also take the 1335 and other prophecies of Daniel completely out of context to try to prove your point. The 1335 days, in example is future and timed from Mid Trib to the rededication of the Temple in them MK..

    The DOTL is still future, from the Rapture to the End of Time. I gave you the link to the verses etc. Yet again, you don't read and reply to actual Bible proofs.

    You don't see a problem with dating setting when you, in fact,, calling God a liar when he says you do not and cannot know? A real need for a serious step back and rethink by you.

    You have thrown out all the literal words of the Bible and substituted your thinking with no proof at all.

    I will stay with God and the Bible.

    .
     
  10. revcheleven

    revcheleven New Member

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    Power was given to the Church at Pentecost (Acts Ch.2).

    I am not taking the 1335 days out of context. What you fail to understand is that the Hebrew calendar is determined by the moon originally created for signs and seasons (see Genesis 1v14). The Hebrews begin their month at the waxing of the crescent moon as sighted by two witnesses on the temple mount between sundown and nightfall (which occurs when the third star is sighted)..... ref: http://bit.ly/1yX0LNK The original Hebrew word for seasons in Genesis 1v14 is Moed, the same word used for Feasts in Leviticus 23v2. It means appointed times..... ref: http://bit.ly/1wc1dWh

    Jesus did not die and rise on any day. It was on an appointed Feast - Passover, Unleavened Bread and First Fruits.

    If you think Jesus can come back at any moment (Imminency) means you fail to understand how God operates. God does not do things haphazardly. He has a purpose. He has a design. From the smallest ant to the largest Dinosaur, there is all design behind it.

    Jesus is coming back at an appointed time that only the Father knows.

    I have done a video about a chart with more detail than I can give here if you are interested .....

    If you delete this post maybe you should review some of your own posts....
    ....such a comment could be construed as preaching since I have certainly not thrown out all literal words of the bible.

    Your website claims I am allowed to speak my mind....but as it turns out my thoughts are being censored.
     
  11. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Wrong, again. I fully understand what happened in Acts 2 and the lunar calendar

    The 1335 days are future.

    The Church did not begin at Acts 2. Just as the giving of the Mosaic Law was not the beginning of Israel, the Church grew from the time of the Cross forward.

    You keep trying to persuade people the Bible didn't mean what it says when stating all the Festivals were fulfilled in Christ and at that time the Mosaic Law, which contains all you are talking about, was rendered null and void.
    Christ died on the day of preparation for the Passover, which begins of the 14th of Nissan. That is the day before Passover, the 13th of Nissan. So, you are in error saying he died on Passover, which is essential to your thinking.

    The OT Passover Lamb was sacrificed on the 14th of Nissan. Didn't happen with Christ.
    They had to wait until the day after Passover to work.
    Now, go back to Matthew 24 and read the rest of the passage.

    Yes, only the Father Knows, which denies your ability to date set.

    So the Bible tells us to be always prepared because he could come at any time.

    There are prophecies of what must occur before he returns in Rapture as a Thief in the Night. So he can return at anytime now because there are none left to fulfill.

    No, the Second Coming and Rapture are not the same event. Once the Rapture occurs everyone can know when the Second Coming will occur. The 7 year Trib is most definitive in laying out a times.

    I have seen it. Does not fly Biblicly.

    Yes, you have, as has been proven over and over.
    Again, half a loaf. You can state your mind but you MUST answer challenges and questions. Which you have not, but simply restated old claims.

    As I told you when deleting those other posts, you had not, and still have not, responded to challenges. You just keep preaching the same things over and over, has you have done in this post.
     
  12. revcheleven

    revcheleven New Member

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    Jesus said that to enter into the Kingdom of God you need to be born of the Spirit (John 3v5)

    The Church was birthed at Pentecost because this is when they received the Spirit! (Acts 1v4&8;2v4)

    They went from 120 believers in Acts 1v15 with no spiritual power to 3120 believers with spiritual power in Acts 2v41



    - King James Version
     
  13. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    The Holy Spirit fell on people, with power, in the OT. So the power issue is "fell on" vs "indwelt."

    But that is irrelevant to the beginning of the Church. The Church is built upon Christ, not the Holy Spirit. The Church is the Bride of Christ, not the Holy Spirit.

    No where in Acts 2 does it say the Church began then. In fact it recognizes, per your own posting there were already 120 with 3,000 being added. Added means in addition to what already existed.

    Yes, to enter Heaven you must be born of the Spirit. So, when did the first spirits of the saints enter Heaven? At Pentecost??

    No, they entered when Christ resurrected and led the OT saints to heaven. So, there were already born-again believers.

    Christ, not the Holy Spirit, is who saves us and gives us eternal life. The Holy Spirit is his agent, not the source.

    The OT Covenant via Israel began with Abraham. Moses added the Mosaic Law to it long after they became the Covenant nation.

    The Church began at the Cross, when the Temple veil was rent. Acts 2 added to it. The writings of the NT added to it. It was not a fully flushed out entity at Acts 2.

    Now, back to the original issue, the feasts, etc still being active when the Bible says they were fulfilled at the Cross.

    As already shown, the lambs blood of Pentecost was shed on the 14th of Nissan under Mosaic Law. But Christ's blood was shed on the 13th of Nissan, not during Pentecost.

    Pentecost was about the shedding of blood, not the Resurrection.

    You have not admitted you were wrong here. Instead you keep trying to prove the Bible is wrong saying all the feasts, etc are long fulfilled. You keep trying to prove they are still in force, when they are not.

    You also keep trying to claim you can say when the Christ comes in the Rapture when the Bible says you cannot.

    It really is time to stop posting the same things over and over and never addressing the proofs that show you are wrong.

    Learn, grow and move one. That is spiritually healthy.
     
    CTZonEdit likes this.
  14. revcheleven

    revcheleven New Member

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    You mean Passover. Not Pentecost. Jesus died at Passover not Pentecost. Passover takes place in the 1st Month and Pentecost in the 3rd Month.
    I am not saying the Feasts are in force since this infers that Christians should observe them on a yearly basis (which I am not). I am simply pointing out that the first three Feasts in Leviticus 23 coincided with Jesus Priestly role and the last three Feasts coincide with His role as Coming-King. The Feasts are about the timing of an event.

    I don't know where you got that Jesus shed his blood on the 13th of Nisan?

    The Rapture is not imminent because of this verse...
    2 Thessalonians 2v3 - [KJV]
    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    ...before the Rapture we must see the Man of Sin.

    So you believe that the Church began when the veil was torn? Really?

    Jesus said this ... Matthew 16v18
    "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." - [KJV]

    Where was Peter directly before the veil was torn?

    Matthew 26v75 - [KJV]
    And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

    The Church could hardly have been being built upon when its so called foundation was denying its Master.

    The Church could not begin at least until Peter was restored in...

    John 21v15-19 - [KJV]
    So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

    Peter first addresses the believers in Acts 1v15 to organise a replacement for Judas. And then with the anointing of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2v14. It is not until Peter the Rock, the foundation addresses the Masses that the Church began. That is the defining point, that is the watershed moment.

    The key issue I am driving at here is why was the Holy-Spirit given on the Feast of Pentecost? If you say that Jesus fulfilled all the Feasts then why did they have to wait until the fiftieth day for the Holy-Spirit? Which ever way you look at it this Feast (Pentecost) had some sort of fulfillment whether the beginning of the Church or the giving of the Holy-Spirit. It was not any random day that the Holy-Spirit fell! But on Pentecost. The fourth Feast in Leviticus 23.

    You say I am not answering challenges. If this Feast (Pentecost) was not fulfilled by Jesus when He died on the Cross then it is obvious the last three Feasts are yet to be fulfilled. The Feast of Trumpets (FOT), Pentecost and Atonement are the road map for the timeline in Daniel and the book of Revelation. There is exactly 1335 days between FOT and Pentecost and there is exactly 1260+1290 days between the FOT and the Day of Atonement. The same periods of time given in Daniel and Revelation. It is you that has to explain to me that coincidence; it is you that has to answer that challenge. Until you have done so you are no more than a Spiritual Ostrich. The date of the Rapture can be known. It is the last day the Day of the LORD which coincides with the Day of Atonement that know one will know because there will be so much turmoil (7xTrumpets and 7xVials). Do you seriously think people will have calendars and time keeping equipment when Rev. 16v20 takes place?

    "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

    Remember your site claims I can speak my mind ..... I anticipate you will delete this post not because of the preaching but because of the TRUTH.
     
  15. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    You are correct, Passover, not Pentecost. Don't know how that got in there.

    No, I won't delete the post, it is educational for others to see how some people refuse to back off of false doctrine no matter how much proof is posted to refute it.

    Well, on the timing issue, there are a lot of verses in the Bible on prophecy. Anyone who has done any serious study knows the order foretold was the First Coming, with all the associated events, which are fulfilled, and then the Second Coming, not yet fulfilled.
    Christ didn't shed his own blood, he allowed others to shed it, making him our sacrificial lamb.
    As to where that is found, I already gave the verses. He died on Preparation Day. Since Passover is the 14th of Nissan, that means he died on the 13th, not on Passover.

    Yes, I am aware some try to claim it begins on the 15th, but that is not what the Bible says.

    But, either way, Christ died on Preparation Day, the Day before Passover.
    Again, go back and read the rest of the passage you keep deleting in your quotes.

    We are in the Falling Away, right now. There is zero requirement for any time separation more than a split second between the removal of the Restrainer (Holy Spirit) and the AC's revealing.

    Even further, the AC cannot be revealed as long as the Restrainer is on the earth, as is stated. So, for him to go the Church must go first, meaning the Rapture.

    Christ acts in the "twinkling of an eye" at the Rapture. Dead Saints resurrect and along with the Living Saints just disappear. Others just see them there one second and gone in a blink. They do not see them Raptured (snatched up/away).

    Saints were told, beginning back then, to be prepared because it could happen at any time. Imminent means at any instant.

    God moves fast and on his own terms, not ours.

    Really, to me, the Immanency argument also includes the simple reality of no one knows when their appointed time to die. So you better always be ready.
    So, you have fallen for the Catholic lie about Peter?

    The word of Peter is "Petros.". The word for the what the Church will be built upon is "Petra." The only person in the NT called Petra is Christ.

    The Church is built upon Christ, not Peter.

    None of the Apostle deferred to Peter or referred to him in any special way.
    Christ was addressing Peter's imminent denial of him.
    Christ charged all the Apostles with the same mission, not just Peter. He never told any of the others to follow Peter's leadership.
    So what? If he was the leader you claimed he would have simply appointed someone.
    Hmmm. I see the Holy Spirit descending upon all the 120 and all speaking in tongues. No designated leader.

    And yes, he spoke to the masses. But that didn't make him Pope. Twelve people speaking at once would not have worked.

    I also see the Holy Spirit on the 120 BEFORE Peter spoke. Not AFTER.

    Peter didn't work well with Gentiles. In fact, Paul publicly chastised him in Galatians. Peter restricted himself to working with Jews.

    Paul, not Peter, was the main author of NT.

    There is no reference in the NT anywhere about Peter leading.

    You are making huge personal assumptions.
    Easy. That was when Jerusalem was packed with people to hear and see the message. There were a lot of confused Jews over what happened at the Temple, etc.

    You keep trying to keep the feasts, etc, alive in one form or another, when the Bible clear says done and over with during the Church Age.

    Simple logistics and logic at work here.
    The Bible says it, not me. You refuse to accept that simple fact.
    Already answered.
    Already answered.
    This and the rest of what you said has been answered several times.

    The verses showing they were all fulfilled by Christ already has been posted. You refuse to accept the verses, meaning you are challenging the validity of the Bible.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2014
  16. revcheleven

    revcheleven New Member

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    You refer to Jesus as our "Sacrificial Lamb" but the scripture clearly tells us He was the "Passover Lamb"

    If Jesus (according to you) did not fulfill this Feast then why does the scripture blatantly state that He did?
     
  17. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    You are not listening to what I said.

    Christ fulfilled ALL the feasts, sacrifices, etc. I have stated that many times.

    Christ did not die on the Passover, but the Day or Preparation, the day before Passover began.

    At Passover, there was not just one lamb, but many. As well has other animal sacrifices.

    What you want to keep saying is their were still feasts in force after he died on the cross.

    Christ died as our sacrificial lamb before Passover. He is our blood price, he fulfilled all of it. The Mosaic Law, which included the feasts, etc, ended on the cross when the veil was rent.

    You do not seem to understand the Bible uses a lot of figurative language to convey a literal truth. It uses seeds, farmers, dragon and more in that manner.

    The Jew understood what the Passover Lamb stood for. It conveyed the meaning of what Christ did simply and clearly to them.

    We do not look at his death on the cross as our source of cleansing, but his resurrection. That is not part of the Passover or any other feast.
    Read Hebrews 10: 1-18

    What you are doing is like the Catholics and their crucifixes. Christ never rose, in any meaningful way, and they still are turning to priests for salvation.

    Remember, in the Passover for the blood to have any meaning, a priest had to collect it and offer it to God. That did not happen with the cross.

    Christ, when he rose, was not only the sacrifice but the High Priest. Something not found in Mosaic Law.

    This was new, eternal and never to be repeated.
     
  18. revcheleven

    revcheleven New Member

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    Dear Brother,

    I am doing my best when it comes to listening to you.




    If all the Feasts have been fulfilled then why is the Feast of Tabernacles still in operation during the Millennial Reign?

    We know it is after Christ's Second Coming because of verse 4

    As I have said all along the Fall-Feasts have not had a New Testament Fulfillment.

    Col 2v16&17 does not say verbatim "all the Feasts have been fulfilled".

    Here is the original Greek with the original Greek Syntax and Grammar...
    3739 ha ἅ which
    1510 estin ἐστιν are
    4639 skia σκιὰ a shadow
    3588 tōn τῶν the things
    3195 mellontōn μελλόντων, coming;
    3588 to τὸ
    1161 de δὲ but
    4983 sōma σῶμα [the] body [is]
    3588 tou τοῦ
    5547 Christou Χριστοῦ. of Christ.
    http://biblehub.com/text/colossians/2-17.htm

    Notice it says "which are a shadow the things coming, but the body is of Christ"

    It clearly says "things coming".






    Have you heard of an Antecedent? What is the Antecedent for the following verses...

    The Holy Spirit is not mentioned once. The Antecedent is the "Man of Sin", "the Son of Perdition". The Restrainer (he who now letteth will let) is the Antichrist himself. The Antichrist is going to get a deadly head wound according to Rev 13v3 and come back to life possessed by Satan. The one "restraining" or "letting" is the Antichrist prior to his death and resurrection. The phrase "Holy Spirit" is not used once in this Pauline Letter.






    You keep comparing me to a Catholic, nothing could be further from the truth. Besides do you believe in the Trinity?
    BTW What denomination are you?




    God Bless
    Mark.
     
  19. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Because the Church Age ends at the Rapture and the New Covenant with Israel and Judah begins. The Holy Spirit does not indwell believers on this earth from the Rapture to the End of Time.

    The physical Temple is also back, as are the Priests.

    But, it is not the same identical covenant as was the Mosaic. There are differences, such as the roles of some glorified from the Church and the 144,000.

    To say "still in operation" is an inaccurate statement.
    This is a difference. In the OT only Israel was required to observe Feasts and Holidays. The rest of the world did not without any form of punishment. They were under the Law of Conscience, not Moses.
    Yep.
    And you are still wrong.
    Read it carefully. It does not say "things to come." It says "shadow of the things that were to come;the reality, however, is found in Christ."

    Clearly says were, not will. Clearly says Christ is what was to come. Done and fulfilled.
    What came before.
    Nor does it say it is not the Holy Spirit.

    I have covered this many times. The only one who is every where at once and with the power to retrain sin is the Holy Spirit. Michael, the Church, etc are not and cannot.

    And no, the AC does not come back to life. The demon who possessed Alexander the Great possesses him. It is as if Alexander rises again, as I have shown the comparisons elsewhere on CTZ.

    At Mid Trib, Satan is cast down and possesses and bring the statue of the AC to life. Another demon rises from the Pit and possesses the False Prophet.

    The AC is active right now, I believe. And he is working before the Trib even begins and a world leader, I believe in the EU, the reformed Roman Empire.
    Of course I believe in the Trinity. First, Second and Third Persons of the Godhead.

    The Second took on the flesh of Christ. Still fully the Second Person in his spirit and full human in his flesh.
    Non-denominational. Literal Bible. We are told to have no divisions among us, which denominations are.

    Since you ask, what denomination are you?
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2015
  20. revcheleven

    revcheleven New Member

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    The Version people online are referring to the most with searches (since 2013) is the KJV (Textus Receptus)...
    https://www.google.com.au/trends/explore#q=kjv, niv&cmpt=q&tz=Etc/GMT-11
    ...NIV shows steady decline .... KJV shows steady increase even before the 400 year anniversary.
     

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