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Lampstands

Discussion in 'General Talk' started by CoreIssue, Apr 28, 2016.

  1. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    I said the lampstands were related to 3 covenants. And the topic is lampstands, not covenants.

    Nor did I say the lampstand were covenants.

    We are not under the New Covenant. That will be to the Houses of Israel and Judah in the future, we are neither House unless you are claiming Replacement Theology. Are you?

    The Church is different because born-again is an immediate event, not future like with the other covenants. The covenant is simple, Unconditional salvation by grace. Eternal Security.

    The other two are conditional.

    Assigning the New Covenant to the Church is a theological invention by the Catholic Church a long time ago because they do believe in Replacement theology and Conditional Salvation.
    That is spelled out again in Hebrew 8. Hebrews is written to the Jews, not the Gentiles.

    The New Covenant is future. It is not to the Gentiles.

    The topic is the Lampstands. One of the reasons I asked that question that was is exactly because of what they represent. And because there was no Lampstands before Israel and will be none in Eternity future.

    Also to force people to think about what they believe in a different way. Obviously it is working here.

    I repeat, the Lampstands are not covenants. They are about specific covenants that have unique purposes no other covenants possess.

    They are brought up time and time again. So they have a reason and purpose we should study.

    We have discussed covenants before and can do so again.But not in this thread.

    Where am I wrong on any aspect of what the parts of the Lampstands symbolize?
     
  2. Richard Johnston

    Richard Johnston New Member

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  3. Richard Johnston

    Richard Johnston New Member

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    Do other Administrators feel this way? I thought this was a Christian Forum; I guess I was mistaken...I probably need to be moving on!
     
  4. Richard Johnston

    Richard Johnston New Member

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    I have never met a true "Born Again" Christian that didn't know that Christ's death on the cross ushered in the New Covenant for all who believe!
     
  5. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Oh, there are a lot out there that know better. Just like Christ was not born on Christmas. And other errors.

    I gave verse proof the New Covenant is to the Houses of Israel and Judah, not us.

    You made a declaration I am wrong. Prove it.

    I already gave verse proof it is not.
     
  6. Richard Johnston

    Richard Johnston New Member

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    HEBREWS 8:13 13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
    MATTHEW 26:28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
    HEBREWS 9:14-17 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
    Prove it, if you don't already know, I certainly won't be able to prove it to you....just the scriptures above would do that for most.....besides it is a heart thing...I pray that Jesus is in or gets in you heart....God Bless
     
  7. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    You conveniently did not mention the verses say the Covenant is to the Houses of Israel and Judah.

    Or that Hebrews and Matthew were written to the Jews.

    Are you saying we are those Houses?

    You keep dodging those issues.

    Heart thing? That is the argument of a lot of cults.
     
  8. Richard Johnston

    Richard Johnston New Member

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    I won't reciprocate with hurling insults and you are an Administrator?! You need to stick to your own guidelines. I look forward to other discussions but I am done with this one!
    God Bless and I pray for your future spiritual growth!
     
  9. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    The simple fact is you refused to address the verses I posted at least 3 times. So, how can there be a discussion when someone does this and keeps making the same disproven claims over and over?

    Hopefully you will think about the issue on the Lampstands and the New Covenant being to the Houses of Israel and Judah.

    If you change your mind, please come back and we can talk about those verses.
     
  10. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    For everyone else, back to the Lampstands.

    Obviously it is a simple sounding topic that isn't.
     
  11. Richard Johnston

    Richard Johnston New Member

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    No, you have this completely wrong!
    Forget Lampstands. Jesus, death on the cross, and nothing else, ushered in God's promised New Covenant for ALL unbelievers, Houses of Judah, Israel and Gentiles alike. If you are truly "Born Again", it is ONLY because of this loving act of Jesus. The New Covenant has been in force since the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and signifies God's salvation by grace alone for all non-believers; this is the gospel that we are charged with spreading. Nothing else is do!
     
  12. Willy

    Willy Pro Poster

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    Hi Joe,

    Of course all forgiveness is based on the finished work of the Cross but would you consider letting God have a timetable for how He deals with different entities, i.e. the Church and Israel? Israel has their eyes veiled at the moment and they cannot understand their own scripture. Gentiles have been grafted in and there is a time in the future where they will be removed and God again will deal with Israel.

    You will find many people divide scripture a little differently than others, some take it literally, others not so much, but the tie that binds us is our sole dependence on our Lord Jesus on the Cross for our sins. That makes us children by adoption and safely protected by God.

    Happy to have you aboard ..!
     
  13. Richard Johnston

    Richard Johnston New Member

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    Agreed!
     
  14. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Willy said it well. I agree with him.
    Actually, I do not. I gave verses to back what I said. verses you have not addressed.
    That is the topic of the thread. I am still waiting for you address what I have pointed out about them.

    Really, I am totally puzzled you do not wish to answer. Really.
    .
    I gave you there verses that refute that statment. You have not addressed them directly.
    Of course. For those under the Mosaic Covenent, it was an future promise. The Church, immediate and the New future. The Mosaic and New are to Israel. The Church to all.
    Not according to the verses I provided.

    By saying it is now, what covenant with the restored Israel be under in the Trib and MK?

    And what covenant are the Two Witness Lampstands for?

    See the problems your thinking creates when put up against the Bible.

    This is a good discussion since many think as you do. Just as many agree with Catholic theology and read the Bible very differently.

    Now please deal with the verse stating the New is to the Houses of Israel and Judah. Not one word about Gentiles.

    And the fact that there are 3 different Lampstands attached to three different covenants.

    I really want to hear your explanation.
     
  15. Richard Johnston

    Richard Johnston New Member

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    I am sorry, it is unfortunate, I have tried to explain..... with all due respect,it just appears to me that you have no clue!
     
  16. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    And you talked about insults.

    You have not explained anything, just made unsupported declarations.

    By the way, I have been study religion and the Bible for 55 years. So you really need to stop acting like I know nothing.

    So, drop the insults and let us discuss it. See where the facts lead.

    By the way, I am a literalist. So, if you wish to use symbolic or figurative arguments, you have to prove them as
    well.

    I doubt there is one I have not heard multiple times already.
     
  17. Richard Johnston

    Richard Johnston New Member

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    What I said was the truth. I said you had no clue, that is the same as saying you are wrong. There is no comparison to you associating me with a cult, simply because you have no answer. I wasn't offended at your name calling, I am sorry the truth hurts!
    You need to understand the Bible better, especially because your idea of the New Covenant is preposterous. I am sure the overwhelming majority of the "Born Again" Christians know the New Covenant as I do. We don't use symbolism, figurative arguments, allegories, parables are anything you could possibly come up with to discredit us. I am truly sorry that you are insulted......the rest of us know the "literal"gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ which ushered in the New Covenant, the promise of salvation for ALL non-believers by the power of God's grace!
    I will give you these scriptures again about the New Covenant; the least you can do is give us your explanation of them:
    HEBREWS 8:13 13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
    MATTHEW 26:28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
    HEBREWS 9:14-17 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
     
  18. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    It is not a vote with majority wins. If so we would all be Catholic.

    Yet again, you failed to cover all the verses. So, I will.

    Bur first, your verses were not written to Gentiles, but only Jews.

    Second you deliberately posted them out of order.
    Which covenant?

    This was written to Jews during the Mosaic Covenant. His blood most assuredly was part of that covenant.
    This passage is written ONLY the Jews.

    Chapter 9 continues the passage. It is not new passage. It is still about the New Covenant to the Houses of Israel and Judah.
    Christ has not come the second time yet.

    You referenced material regarding the Mosaic Covenant and called it the New Covenant. Doing so while Christ was still alive and under the Mosaic.

    Then you went to Hebrews and split a long passage up and failed to reference it clearly states the New Covenant is to the Houses of Israel and Judah only.

    Also failed to note it is prophetic, since the Houses were divided, their nation would end and they would be without a home for centuries.

    During the interlude the Church has existed and Israel was restored as a nation in 1948.

    But, even then, no New Covenant. That will come with the Rapture of the Church, First Seal, revealing of the AC and the Two Witnesses Lampstand descending to the earth.

    During the Trib it is all Israel again. Not one mention of the Church.

    And on into the MK. Where the Temple will be there again.

    Only in the Church Age are we born-again on this earth. Only in the Church Age is there no physical temple with sacrifices, priests, etc.

    There is no way around it. We are not under the New Covenant to the Houses of Israel and Judah.

    Or, do you believe in Replacement Theology?
     
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  19. Richard Johnston

    Richard Johnston New Member

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    Again, you won't or can't answer my verses directly, but I will address yours:

     
  20. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Again you disregard the verses. It says the New Covenant was to Israel and Judah. Period.

    The First Covenant was to the Jews, not Gentiles as well.

    The blood and salvation promises existed since Adam and Eve. It did not begin with the Mosaic, or no one before then would or could be saved.

    The three covenants deal with salvation issues. They are not salvation.

    Yet again, you refuse to deal with to whom the covenants are made.
     

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