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Jewish vs Christian Scriptures

Discussion in 'Bible History and Versions' started by Eliyahu, Oct 20, 2014.

  1. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu New Member

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    A new thread had been created since the following posts are not about the New World Translation.

    Bs'd

    As a general rule, the New World Translation is much less corrupted toward Christianity then for instance the KJV.

    For instance, in Isaiah 7:14 the NWT says "The young woman will become pregnant" while about every other translation says there "virgin" in stead of "young women".

    And it just happens to be so that the NWT is right, and the rest is corrupted to support Christianity.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2014
  2. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Quite clearly it means virgin.

    JW' believe Christ is Michael the Archangel.

    As well, there is a new version of the NWT in work.
     
  3. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu New Member

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    Bs'd

    Strong is simply wrong here.

    And as he says: "Maid or newly married", and that is definitely not a virgin.

    And of course, most of the Bible translators translate the word "almah" as "maid", "damsel", or something like that.

    Except of course in Isaiah 7, there they almost all of 'm, say "virgin".

    The Hebrew word for "virgin" is "betulah". And not "almah".

    See here how most of the Bible translations in other places than Isaiah 7:14 translate it overwhelmingly different than "virgin":
    https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/almahtranslationa
     
  4. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu New Member

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    Bs'd

    Micah 5:2
    New American Standard Bible "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity."

    The NWT says here: "From you will come out for me the one to be ruler in Israel, Whose origin is from ancient times, from the days of long ago."

    So who is right?

    Holman Christian Standard Bible " Bethlehem Ephrathah, you are small among the clans of Judah; One will come from you to be ruler over Israel for Me. His origin is from antiquity, from eternity.

    New Life Version "His coming was planned long ago, from the beginning."

    Darby Translation "whose goings forth are from of old, from the days of eternity."

    American Standard Version "whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting."

    All versions of the King James: "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

    Amplified Bible "Whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days (eternity).


    All the above translation say the origins of the messiah are from "everlasting" or from "eternity", hereby implying that the messiah is God.
    The Hebrew words here translated with "from everlasting" or "days of eternity" are "jamei olaam", which means literally "ancient days".
    Many Bible translations translate it like that, only the above hold on to "days of eternity", or something with the same implications, because they want to push the wrong Christian idea that the messiah is God himself.

    However, also the above translations know how to correctly translate the words "jamei olaam". We see that for instance in Micah 7:14, were the same expression "jamei olaam" is used. See here how the above translate it there:

    Holman Christian Standard Bible " Let them graze in Bashan and Gilead as in ancient times."

    New Life Version "Let them eat in Bashan and Gilead as in days long ago."

    Darby Translation "let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old. "

    American Standard Version "let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old."

    King James: "let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old."

    New American Standard Bible "Let them feed in Bashan and Gilead As in the days of old."

    Amplified Bible "they shall feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old."




    Another place where the expression "jamei olaam" is used, is in Isaiah 63:11

    Holman Christian Standard Bible " Then He remembered the days of the past, [the days] of Moses [and] his people."

    New Life Version "Then His people remembered the days long ago, the days of Moses."

    Darby Translation "But he remembered the days of old, Moses [and] his people:"

    American Standard Version "Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people,"

    King James: "Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people,"

    New American Standard Bible "Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses"

    Amplified Bible "Then His people [seriously] remembered the days of old, of Moses and his people"




    Another place where the expression "jamei olaam" is used is Amos 9:11

    Holman Christian Standard Bible "In that day I will restore the fallen booth of David: I will repair its gaps,
    restore its ruins, and rebuild it as in the days of old,"

    New Life Version "In that day I will build again the tent of David that fell down. Yes, I will build it again from the stones that fell down. I will set it up again as it used to be."

    Darby Translation "and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:"

    American Standard Version "and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old;"

    King James: "and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:"

    Amplified Bible "and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old,"

    New American Standard Bible "I will also raise up its ruins And rebuild it as in the days of old;"



    Another place where the expression "jamei olaam" is used is in Malachi 3:4

    Holman Christian Standard Bible "And the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will please the LORD as in days of old and years gone by"

    New Life Version "Then the gifts of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord, as they were in the past."

    Darby Translation "Then shall the oblation of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto J-e-h-o-v-a-h, as in the days of old, and as in former years."

    American Standard Version "Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto J-e-h-o-v-a-h, as in the days of old, and as in ancient years."

    King James: "Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years."

    Amplified Bible "Then will the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in ancient years."

    New American Standard Bible "Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years."

    It should be clear by now for everybody that the expression "jamei olaam" has no bearing on "days of eternity" whatsoever.
    It is always translated correct, except there where Christianity wants to push it's dogma of a divine messiah. There the translations are corrupted in order to squeeze in JC.

    Except for the NWT of course, he gives the right translation.
     
  5. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu New Member

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    Bs'd

    Psalm 22
    To begin with; the Psalms are not prophetic writings. Also Psalm 22 does not claim to prophesize about the messiah. It is nowhere written: The messiah will come and he will call out during his execution: My God, my God, why did you forsake me? This is king David speaking about himself. This Psalm is written mainly in the past tense, and describes the tribulations King David went through. But, as shown before, the authentic messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled by Jesus, and therefore Christianity has to resort to Biblical texts that have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, and present them as messianic prophecies. Because of the fact that, according the NT, Jesus quoted Psalms during his execution, the Christians claim that this Psalm must be a prophecy about the messiah. An upside down proof based upon nothing. And even that is not enough. In order to make it a little more authentic Christianity squeezed in the infamous falsification about the “piercing of hand and feet”. See verse 16: “Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet.” They say: “Look! Here is the crucifixion, prophesized in the Psalms!”

    Point one: It is not written here that that the hands and feet of the messiah would be pierced. Like I pointed out: King David speaks here about himself, and that in the past tense. And on top of that: there is no such a thing as “they pierced my hand an feet”. The Hebrew word that is here translated as 'pierced' is 'ka'arie'. There is no word that even comes close to ka'arie that means piercing. To call this a mistranslation is too euphemistic, we should call this just what it is; another Christian falsification of their Bible translations, in order to squeeze in JC. The word that comes the closest is 'karah', but it is impossible to fit that in here, because that would violate almost every rule in the Hebrew grammar. And besides that, karah does not mean piercing, but 'to dig up, to bring up from the ground' (in the sense of mining)

    The Hebrew prefix 'ka' means: 'as the', and the Hebrew word 'arie' means 'lion'. So what it says here is: "Like the lion [they are at] my hands and feet." The text between the square brackets is my insertion. So King David, who is not prophesizing about the messiah here, is speaking about a lion, and not about piercing hands and feet. The same lion he speaks about in verse 13 and 21.

    Also the modern day Bible translations translate this in the wrong way. I could find only one Christian Bible translation who translates this verse in the right way, and that is the translation of the Y-H-V-H witnesses. But at least the modern Bible translations have the decency to write that there is no such thing in the Hebrew text.

    My edition of the Revised Standard Version has a footnote with the word pierced in verse 16, it says there: "Gk Syr Jerome: Heb like a lion" That means that the translators get the word “pierced” from the ancient Greek translation; the Septuaginth, and from the Syriac translation, and from the Vulgata, the Catholic translation of the Bible into Latin, made by Jerome, on the request of Pope Damascus, in 328 CE. But this: “Heb like a lion” means that they admit that in the Hebrew is written: Like a lion.

    Here is the footnote of the New American Standard Bible Update (1995): "Another reading is like a lion, my..."

    And here is the footnote of the New International Version: "Some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint and Syriac; most Hebrew manuscripts: 'like the lion,"

    What the Bible translators are doing here is ignoring the original Hebrew Bible, and translating translations instead, because that fits the Christian theology better.

    But the exact same word "ka'arie" is used in Isaiah 38:13. This claim can be checked out by people who cannot read Hebrew, by means of the Christian Hebrew-English interlinear, that is a Hebrew text of the Tanach, (OT), with under each word an English translation. Provided by a Christian institution. Look here: www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm and look there how it is translated there. It is possible to zoom into the text.
    On the right side of the Hebrew text is a normal English translation. Now look at the discrepancy between how the Hebrew is translated right underneath, and how it is translated in the text on the right side. VERY educational!


    And look here how the English translations translate the word "ka'arie" in Isaiah 38:11;

    New International Version “I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones;”

    ew American Standard Bible: “I composed my soul until morning. Like a lion--so He breaks all my bones,”

    The Message: “I cry for help until morning. Like a lion, God pummels and pounds me,”

    Amplified Bible: “I thought and quieted myself until morning. Like a lion He breaks all my bones;”

    New Living Translation: “I waited patiently all night, but I was torn apart as though by lions.”

    King James Version: “I reckoned till morning, that, as a lion, so will he break all my bones:”

    English Standard Version: “I calmed myself until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones;”

    Contemporary English Version: “Until morning came, I thought you would crush my bones just like a hungry lion;”

    New King James Version: “ I have considered until morning-- Like a lion, So He breaks all my bones;”

    New Century Version: "I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones"

    21st Century King James Version: “I reckoned till morning that, as a lion, so will He break all my bones;”

    American Standard Version: “I quieted myself until morning; as a lion, so he breaketh all my bones:”

    Young's Literal Translation: “I have set [Him] till morning as a lion, So doth He break all my bones,”

    Darby Translation: “I kept still until the morning; ... as a lion, so doth he break all my bones.”

    Revised Standard version: “I cry for help until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones;”



    Another place where we see the word "ka'arie" is in Numbers 24:9. See here how it is there translated:

    New International Version “Like a lion they crouch and lie down"

    New American Standard Bible: “He crouches, he lies down as a lion"

    The Message: “Israel crouches like a lion and naps"

    Amplified Bible: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"

    New Living Translation: “Like a lion, Israel crouches and lies down"

    King James Version: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"

    English Standard Version: “He crouched, he lay down like a lion"

    Contemporary English Version: “Like a lion you lie down"

    New King James Version: “He bows down, he lies down as a lion"

    New Century Version: “Like a lion, they lie waiting to attack"

    21th Century King James Version: "He couched, he lay down as a lion"

    American Standard Version: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"

    Young's Literal Translation: “He hath bent, he hath lain down as a lion"

    Darby Translation: “He stooped, he lay down like a lion"

    Revised Standard version: “He couched, he lay down like a lion"

    Also in Ezechiel 22:25 we encounter the same word "ka'arie", followed by the word "sho'eig", which means "roaring". See here how that is translated:Ezekiel 22:25 KJ21
    There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey.

    Ezekiel 22:25 ASV
    There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey:

    Ezekiel 22:25 AMP
    There is a conspiracy of [Israel’s false] prophets in the midst of her, like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

    Ezekiel 22:25 CEB
    The conspiracy of princes in her is like a roaring lion ripping up prey.

    Ezekiel 22:25 CJB
    There is a conspiracy of prophets in it like a roaring lion tearing up the prey;

    Ezekiel 22:25 CEV
    Their leaders are like roaring lions, tearing apart their victims.

    Ezekiel 22:25 DARBY
    There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst of her like a roaring lion ravening the prey;

    Ezekiel 22:25 DRA
    There is a conspiracy of prophets in the midst thereof: like a lion that roareth and catcheth the prey,

    Ezekiel 22:25 ERV
    The prophets in Jerusalem are making evil plans. They are like a lion—it roars when it begins to eat the animal it
    caught.

    Ezekiel 22:25 ESV
    The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

    Ezekiel 22:25 ESVUK
    The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

    Ezekiel 22:25 EXB
    Like a roaring lion that tears ·the animal it has caught [its prey], Israel’s ·rulers [princes] ·make evil plans [conspire].

    Ezekiel 22:25 GNV
    There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof like a roaring lion, ravening the prey:

    Ezekiel 22:25 GW
    Your princes are like roaring lions who tear their prey into pieces.

    Ezekiel 22:25 GNT
    The leaders are like lions roaring over the animals they have killed.

    Ezekiel 22:25 HCSB
    The conspiracy of her prophets within her is like a roaring lion tearing its prey:

    Ezekiel 22:25 KJV
    There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey;

    Ezekiel 22:25 AKJV
    There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey;

    Ezechiel 22: KNOX
    What of the prophets? A sworn conspiracy; lions roaring for their prey, the lives of men;

    Ezekiel 22:25 LEB
    The conspiracy of its prophets in the midst of her is like a roaring lion that is tearing prey.

    Ezekiel 22:2523- MSG
    The leaders among you became desperate, like roaring, ravaging lions killing indiscriminately.

    Ezekiel 22:25 NOG
    Your princes are like roaring lions who tear their prey into pieces.

    Ezekiel 22:25 NASB
    There is a conspiracy of her prophets in her midst like a roaring lion tearing the prey.

    Ezekiel 22:25 NCV
    Like a roaring lion that tears the animal it has caught, Israel’s rulers make evil plans.

    Ezekiel 22:25 NET
    Her princes within her are like a roaring lion tearing its prey; they have devoured lives.

    Ezekiel 22:25 NIRV
    “Ezekiel, the princes of the land are like a roaring lion that tears its food apart.

    Ezekiel 22:25 NIV
    There is a conspiracy of her princes within her like a roaring lion tearing its prey;

    Ezekiel 22:25 NIVUK
    There is a conspiracy of her princes within her like a roaring lion tearing its prey;

    Ezekiel 22:25 NKJV
    The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

    Ezekiel 22:25 NLV
    Israel’s false religious leaders are making plans within her. They are like a lion making noise over the food it has killed.

    Ezekiel 22:25 NLT
    Your princes plot conspiracies just as lions stalk their prey.

    Ezekiel 22:25 NRSV
    Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

    Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVA
    Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

    Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVACE
    Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

    Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVCE
    Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

    Yechezkel 22: OJB
    There is a kesher of her nevi’im in the midst thereof, like a roaring ari lion tearing the prey;

    Ezekiel 22:25 RSV
    Her princes in the midst of her are like a roaring lion tearing the prey; t

    Ezekiel 22:25 RSVCE
    Her princes in the midst of her are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

    Ezekiel 22:25 VOICE
    Her prophets conspire in her midst like raging lions killing their prey;

    Ezekiel 22:25 WEB
    There is a conspiracy of her prophets within it, like a roaring lion ravening the prey:

    Ezekiel 22:25 WYC
    Swearing together, either conspiring, of prophets is in the midst thereof; as a lion roaring and taking prey like a lion roaring and taking prey,

    Ezekiel 22:25 YLT
    A conspiracy of its prophets [is] in its midst, as a roaring lion tearing prey;


    So the translators know very well what "ka'arie" means. It is just that in Psalm 22 (almost) all the Christian Bible translators are collectively struck with blindness, and go astray.

    But here we see what “ka’arie” means: “As the lion”, and, more important, we clearly see what is does NOT mean: "piercing".

    So in Psalm 22 it does not speak about the final messiah, and not about a crucifixion, and the “piercing” in Psalm 22 is just another Christian falsification of their Bible translations.


    Only the NWT translates it correct....
     
  6. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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  7. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Really? You are saying Mary was not a virgin? Or the definition says virgin or young woman, one or the other? Not a young woman who is a virgin?

    Where in the Bible is a woman who is not a young virgin every called this term?

    You need to learn how to read a dictionary. It says it means a virgin/young woman who is of marriageable age, maid, one who is single, or newly married.

    The Bible clearly states Mary was newly married but had not had sex.

    As well, in the Hebrew marriage custom, one is referred to as married upon becoming engaged.

    Also, the families kept close control of unmarried females. They were not allowed to be with men by themselves or without parental permission.
    All meaning virgin young girls or women.
    Anything but being virgin would hardly be sign.
    You already have the definition, which you want to avoid, that says it includes being a virgin.
    As said, it would not be a sign if she were not a virgin. Not rocket science.
     
  8. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu New Member

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    Bs'd

    The LXX is corrupted by the RK church, something they freely admit:

    Here are a few excerpts from the online Catholic Encyclopedia, here to be found:
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/ from the entry "Septuagint" which show the reliability of the LXX:

    The Christians had recourse to it constantly in their controversies with the Jews, who soon recognized its imperfections, and finally rejected it in favour of the Hebrew text or of more literal translations (Aquila, Theodotion).

    On account of its diffusion alone the hellenizing Jews and early Christians, copies of the Septuagint were multiplied; and as might be expected, many changes, deliberate as well as involuntary, crept in.

    The Septuagint Version, while giving exactly as to the form and substance the true sense of the Sacred Books, differs nevertheless considerably from our present Hebrew text.

    Again, we must not think that we have at present the Greek text exactly as it was written by the translators; the frequent transcriptions during the early centuries, as well as the corrections and editions of Origen, Lucian, and Hesychius impaired the purity of the text: voluntarily or involuntarily the copyists allowed many textual corruptions, transpositions, additions, and omissions to creep into the primitive text of the Septuagint.

    So the Catholics openly admit they corrupted the LXX.

    That's simply a lie, it doesn't have that.

    "Which is best explained", that means, "it isn't written there".

    That sequence is mainly based on Christian translations or translations corrupted by Christians.

    The real thing, the Hebrew text, does NOT have "pierced".

    • Another lie, that root just doesn't exist.

    • NOWHERE in the whole Tanach will you find a root with those letters.

    Christians are simply corrupting the translations to fit their religion, just like they do in the above example of Micah 5.
     
  9. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu New Member

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    Bs'd

    Who is talking about Mary? We are talking about the young woman from Isaiah 7, not about Mary.

    A young woman can be a virgin, and she can be a non-virgin. The term "almah" just doesn't say anything about that.

    And seeing that in Isaiah 7 that young woman is pregnant and in the proces of giving birth, it is a bit too much a stretch of the imagination to assume she is a virgin.

    Proverbs 30:
    18 "There are three things that are too amazing for me,
    four that I do not understand:

    19 the way of an eagle in the sky,
    the way of a snake on a rock,
    the way of a ship on the high seas,
    and the way of a man with a maiden.

    20 "This is the way of an adulteress:
    She eats and wipes her mouth
    and says, 'I've done nothing wrong.'


    An eagle in the sky doesn't leave a trail which can be followed.

    A snake on a rock doesn't leave a trail which can be followed.

    A ship on the sea doesn't leave a trail which can be followed.

    A man who has his way with a maiden (in the Hebrew "almah") doesn't leave a trail of what he has done.
    A man with a virgin does leave a trail, namely the fact that the hymen has been torn, so here is not spoken about a virgin.

    "This is the way of an adulteress: She eats (eating here means having forbidden sexual relations) and wipes her mouth (mouth here is an euphemism for the female sexual organ) and says, 'I've done nothing wrong." because no trail is left, and nobody can prove anything any more.

    But it should be clear to everybody that here the "almah" is not a virgin.

    Is a newly married woman a virgin?

    Totally irrelevant, we are not talking about Mary.

    And things like rape, premarital sex, incest, or whatever, never occurred in the good old days?

    Non of these must be a virgin.

    Please explain how a "virgin birth" would be a sign. How would anybody know that the pregnant woman is still a virgin? Do they have to take her word for it? In that case we'll be seeing a whole lot more "virgin births".

    Did the whole town come to look if her hymen was still intact?

    As you see, a virgin birth cannot be a sign.

    A Christian definition.

    Let's see what a dictionary says about it:

    http://translation.babylon.com/hebrew/to-english/

    We put in עלמה, and we get out: "lass, maiden, damsel, fraulein, mademoiselle, signorina" and that's it. No virgin mentioned anywhere.

    Another dictionary: http://www.morfix.co.il/en/עלמה

    Result: "maiden ; העלמה - Miss"

    Again; no virgin mentioned.

    And lets now see what we get with the normal Hebrew word for virgin; "betulah": http://www.morfix.co.il/en
    בְּתוּלָה שֵם נ'
    virgin (female) ; (literary) young lass, young woman

    http://translation.babylon.com/hebrew/to-english/

    virgin, maiden, vestal; Virgo (astron.)

    It is simple; "betulah" means "virgin", and "almah" means "young woman", who can or cannot be a virgin, who can or cannot be married.

    A virgin birth is not a sign, no rocket science.
     
  10. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu New Member

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    Bs'd

    The prophecy of Isaiah 7:

    1: In the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, son of Uzzi'ah, king of Judah, Rezin the king of Syria and Pekah the son of Remali'ah the king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to wage war against it, but they could not conquer it. 2: When the house of David was told, "Syria is in league with E'phraim," his heart and the heart of his people shook as the trees of the forest shake before the wind. 3: And the LORD said to Isaiah, "Go forth to meet Ahaz, you and She'ar-jash'ub your son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool on the highway to the Fuller's Field, 4: and say to him, `Take heed, be quiet, do not fear, and do not let your heart be faint because of these two smoldering stumps of firebrands, at the fierce anger of Rezin and Syria and the son of Remali'ah. 5: Because Syria, with E'phraim and the son of Remali'ah, has devised evil against you, saying, 6: "Let us go up against Judah and terrify it, and let us conquer it for ourselves, and set up the son of Ta'be-el as king in the midst of it," 7: thus says the Lord GOD: It shall not stand, and it shall not come to pass.
    8: For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin. (Within sixty-five years E'phraim will be broken to pieces so that it will no longer be a people.) 9: And the head of E'phraim is Sama'ria, and the head of Sama'ria is the son of Remali'ah. If you will not believe, surely you shall not be established.'" 10: Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz,
    11: "Ask a sign of the LORD your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven." 12: But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, and I will not put the LORD to the test." 13: And he said, "Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also? 14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el. 15: He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16: For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted."

    We see here in Isaiah 7, that king Achaz, the king of Judah, is afraid of two neighboring kings.
    It is important to know that after the death of king Solomo the kingdom of Israel split up into two parts; into the kingdom of Judah, and the kingdom of Israel.
    The kingdom om Judah was made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and a part of the Levites. The kingdom of Israel was made up of the other ten tribes.
    Achaz was king over Judah, and in this prophecy the king of Israel is Pekah, the son of Remaliah.
    And Pekah had made a covenant with the king of Syria, called Resin, to attack together the kingdom of Judah.
    This news caused king Achaz considerable stress, because he had a dark suspicion that things could very well turn out not so very rosy for him.
    Therefore God sent Isaiah to Achaz, in order to tell him that things would work out just fine for him. God tells Achaz that he will give him a sign. Here is the sign: "14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman is pregnant and is giving birth to a son, and she called his name Imman'u-el. 15: He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16: For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted."

    God says that before the child of the young woman who is pregnant will grow up, the land of the two kings, Resin of Syria, and Pekah of Israel, will be deserted, that is devoid of people. Those two nations will be led into exile.
    So this is a sign for king Achaz, who lived about 700 years before JC.

    And the Bible tells us that this prophecy came true: "27: In the fifty-second year of Azari'ah king of Judah Pekah the son of Remali'ah began to reign over Israel in Sama'ria, and reigned twenty years. 28: And he did what was evil in the sight of the LORD; he did not depart from the sins of Jerobo'am the son of Nebat, which he made Israel to sin. 29: In the days of Pekah king of Israel Tig'lath-pile'ser king of Assyria came and captured I'jon, A'bel-beth-ma'acah, Jan-o'ah, Kedesh, Hazor, Gilead, and Galilee, all the land of Naph'tali; and he carried the people captive to Assyria. 30: Then Hoshe'a the son of Elah made a conspiracy against Pekah the son of Remali'ah, and struck him down, and slew him, and reigned in his stead, in the twentieth year of Jotham the son of Uzzi'ah."
    II Kings 15.

    We see here that the population of Israel indeed went into exile, and that the land of king Pekah was deserted.

    And here is what happened to Resin, the king of Syria:
    "6: At that time the king of Edom recovered Elath for Edom, and drove the men of Judah from Elath; and the E'domites came to Elath, where they dwell to this day. 7: So Ahaz sent messengers to Tig'lath-pile'ser king of Assyria, saying, "I am your servant and your son. Come up, and rescue me from the hand of the king of Syria and from the hand of the king of Israel, who are attacking me." 8: Ahaz also took the silver and gold that was found in the house of the LORD and in the treasures of the king's house, and sent a present to the king of Assyria. 9: And the king of Assyria hearkened to him; the king of Assyria marched up against Damascus, and took it, carrying its people captive to Kir, and he killed Rezin."
    II Kings 16.

    So here we see that also the inhabitants of the land of King Resin went into exile, and also his land was deserted, in the days of Achaz.

    So God gave a sign to Achaz.

    In the days of Achaz.

    About 700 years before JC.

    So this prophecy has no bearing what so ever on the messiah, and NOWHERE in this prophecy is spoken about a virgin.

    These are only misconceptions of the NT.

    However, the NT brings this prophecy to Achaz as a messianic prophecy, see Matthew 1 "21: she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." 22: All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: 23: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel".

    So what the NT does here, is taking a text which does not speak about the messiah, ripping it out of context, mistranslating it, (is says "young woman", and not "virgin") and then presenting it to us as a messianic prophecy.

    So one of the foundations of the Christian religion, the virgin birth, is based upon a mistranslated text which is ripped out of context and does NOT speak about the messiah.

    Look here for more reasons why nobody should believe in the New Testament: http://mountzion.notlong.com
     
  11. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    So, you are not a Christian. Your choice, as is your rejection of the Bible.

    I have listened to a number of Rabbis attempting to explain away Christ, the virgin birth, etc. They always restore to redefining words in contradiction to know linguistics, rules of grammar, history and spiritualizing meanings. Some say Israel itself is the Messiah.

    The 70 Weeks of Daniel remain problem for such thinking, in example. An exact time frame is set for the coming of the Messiah. We are 2,000 years past the deadline.

    I noted when you first posted you took the name Elijah. So you think you are a prophet?
     
  12. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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  13. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu New Member

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    The vast majority, the Hebrew Bible, I accept.

    Daniel 9 does not speak about THE messiah. It speaks about two messiah's, but not about THE messiah.

    For the finer details look here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/daniel9

    I don't think I'm a prophet. It's just that "Eliyahu" means "My God is Y-H-W-H". And that's the way it is.
     
  14. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    A lot of good stuff to respond to, but I will leave it to CTZ to discuss it with you.

    I know what Eliyahu means, which some do not know is Elijah in English.

    Here we are open to discussion with people of any faith, as long as it is honest an true discussion and debate.
     
  15. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu New Member

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    Concerning the "like the lion" controversy, it is important to know that what is written in the Hebrew text, is "like the lion".

    The claim that in de Dead Sea scrolls there is written "they pierced" is wrong. There it is written kaf, aleph, reesh, waav; כארו
    And that is a word that does not exist in Hebrew. It is nowhere to be found in the Tanach. It is most likely a scribal error, all the more so because the word "hands" following the "ka'ari" is also misspelled in that scroll.
    The vast majority of Hebrew manuscripts says there simply "like the lion", that is kaf, aleph, reesh, yot: כארי
    In order to turn that into a known verb, the aleph has to disappear, and the yot needs to be replaced by a waav, and then you get כרו, a verb that means "digging", and not piercing. Google translate translates that as "mined".

    So there really is no "pierced" in Psalm 22.
     
  16. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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  17. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu New Member

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    You seem to overlook the simple fact that there is NOT A SINGLE MANUSCRIPT THAT HAS "PIERCED".

    There might be some that have כארו, but like I said before, that means nothing in Hebrew. That verb doesn't exist in Hebrew or the Tanach.

    You have to turn it into כרו by dropping the alef, but then you get the verb "digging", and not piercing.

    So there is no way you can say that "hands and feet are pierced in Psalm 22".

    Just doesn't exist.
     
  18. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    Well you've been shown why the historians and linguistic scholars agree that the correct interpretation is pierced and lion is meaningless in the given context.
    Pierced is the correct interpretation in light of all the other scholarly review we have to date.

    You reject the overwhelming modern scholarship and expert verification of the linguistics involved in the matter of translation in favor of your own interpretation.
    OK...but you just tossed all logic and reason out the window in your own worldview.
     
  19. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu New Member

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    The Jews are the ones who have transmitted the Torah and the rest of the Hebrew Bible through the millennia with very great accuracy. The Tanach is even much more accurately transmitted than the much younger NT.

    And that is what I rely on, the Jewish tradition and zeal in transmitting the Scriptures unchanged, a tradition which continues up until today.

    Christians rely upon corrupted translations like the LXX, Christian made translations like the Vulgata, en other sources which are not reliable.

    You say: "Pierced is the correct interpretation in light of all the other scholarly review we have to date."

    I don't do interpretations, I just read what is written there.

    That Christians corrupt their translations is also clear from the example I gave from Micah 5.

    And we can also see it in Isaiah 7, where the word "almah" is translated as "virgin", when it doesn't have that meaning.
     
  20. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    How do you come to the conclusion that the Jews were absolutely perfect in their translations?
    You rely on what you claim to be perfect. Not so.

     

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