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Jesus Christ

Discussion in 'Jesus Christ' started by CoreIssue, Feb 18, 2014.

  1. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Jesus did not exist in the OT. He was a promise, concept, etc.

    Many misunderstand the linguistics. In the Bible, many words mean to speak of something not yet done as done. That applies to the OT references to Christ.

    God (Elohim) means three or more working as one. It is a uni-plural meaning singular in usage but plural in composition.

    God is spirit, not flesh.

    Theologically, in the OT it was the First, Second and Third Persons of the Triune Godhead (Trinity).

    At the Incarnation, the First Person sent the Second to be put in Mary via the Third. Since then they are known as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Father being the non sexual source of the male side of the flesh of Jesus and Mary the female side.

    Not being via a human father, Christ was conceived sinless. As the First Man was created sinless Christ was conceived sinless.


    Yet, because of Mary, he is human from the line of Adam.

    Adam was created innocent in spirit and body. He had no idea what sin was, so when he sinned he was not held accountable.

    Understand here, the Bible says no one is accountable for sin they do not know is sin. As God revealed to Man additional things that were sinful they became more accountable, but also more able to earn rewards.

    So, did Adam and Eve sin when innocent? Yes. But they were not held accountable.

    Sin increased when they were told not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good an Evil. They now knew, so when Eve ate, she sinned and the Tree gave here even more knowledge of sin.

    Long story short, she obtained the Law of Conscience, meaning an inherent knowledge of things good and bad. We know it as having a Conscience.

    When she tempted Adam and he ate, she was accountable for the temptation, Adam for listening and eating and he gained the Law of Conscience.

    Many don't think about it, but when God called out the them, why did they hide? Because they were naked and new it was wrong to be so before God. Not before each other, which should be noted, since they were a couple, married or whatever term you wish to apply.

    When that sin occurred, their flesh became sin tainted and they died spiritually.

    Sin increased, again, with the giving of the Mosaic Law. Then again with the coming of Christ.
    Before time began the Logos, the reason behind all, was both God and with God. The Second Person is God and was with the First and Second Persons. Separately and together they are God.
    The Second Person took on flesh then, not before. Jesus did not exist until the conception.
    He became, not come as, flesh.

    Why did God take on flesh?
    Adam and Christ were perfect, no sin. Adam, the First Man sinned and fell, condemning all of Man to follow. Christ, the second Man, never sinned and took the sins of the repentant on himself and died in our place.

    It is Biblical principle an innocent can pay the penalties of another.

    But, for sin, there are no innocents. The blood of lambs in the OT was a token, a symbol only of the blood of Christ to come and their repentance.

    God cannot die, so he had to take on the flesh that could die. It was required for Man to pay for the sins of Man.

    On the cross, the flesh of Christ died, his humanity, not his spirit, which is God.

    Since he is God and sinless, his spirit in Hell could not be held there. His purity was too great and there was no justice in his being there, so he resurrected.

    The OT prophesied the virgin birth. The Temple was a shadow of the Heavenly Temple, the oil lamps the 7 Angels of the Covenant, the lampstand the Mosaic Covenant, the High Priest Christ as our High Priest and the spotless lamb on the cross, the blood price for our salvation.

    The lampstand of the Mosaic Covenant was replaced by the 7 Lampstands of the Church, with the same angels continuing as the Lamps fed by the Holy Spirit. Enoch and Elijah will be the Two Witnesses of the first 3.5 years of the Trib heralding the Second Coming. They are also the Two Lampstands of the New Covenant that begins at the Rapture/First Seal/Revealing of the AC.

    I mention the 7 angels, Holy Spirit and the Lampstands since they represent God's Covenants with believers, the blood work on the earth and are active agents of salvation and to set up the next point.

    For the First Coming, the Incarnation, John the Baptist is described as Elijah. As does Elijah before the Second Coming he preached Christ's mission on the earth, his baptism with the Holy Spirit and more.

    What was Christ's 3.5 year mission? To preach the Gospel of his coming, sacrifice and salvation for Man. To warn and try to bring Israel back to God. Failing that, to establish the Church for the time between the cross and the Rapture.

    Only God could bring salvation to Man. To do so he had to take on flesh and pay an unbelievable price out of pure love.

    The plan and work of salvation began with Adam and Eve. It is still progressing today.

    In all of it, Christ is the center and and reason behind all things for us.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2014
  2. Richard Johnston

    Richard Johnston New Member

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    Ridiculous!
    John 1:1-5
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome
    You really have no clue do you? Jesus not only existed in the OT, He existed in the beginning and even before creation!
    Where do you get these false and wild ideas?
    What Church do you belong to?
     
  3. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Here we go again with not giving all the verses.
    Became, not was.

    Christ had to be human to be human to be our blood sacrifice. He is the Second Adam, not the first.

    His flesh was not God. You cannot kill God.

    The First Person of the Trinity is not nor ever was the Father of the Second Person. He was the Father of the flesh he the Second took on with Mary as the mother.
     
  4. Richard Johnston

    Richard Johnston New Member

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    The son has always existed. You have to be careful with your words, if you want to be understood. Yes he Jesus, God became flesh. If you meant Flesh and blood Jesus , O.K. but you didn't say that , you said a blank statement that Jesus didn't exist in the Old Testament. Jesus, Christ, the son has always existed, maybe not in the flesh but he, Jesus, did the creating so he was certainly here during the Old Testament. Here is just a few verses and an amazing story of his appearnce!
    • The book of Daniel describes one of the most dramatic appearances of the Son of God in the entire Old Testament. The passage in Daniel 3 tells of three Jews, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, who were sentenced to death for refusing to worship an idol that King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon erected and commanded all his subjects to revere. The king was enraged that they had questioned his supreme authority and ordered that they be thrown into a furnace and it be heated to seven times its normal intensity. The fire became so hot that it killed the soldiers assigned to push them into the inferno.

      But when the three were in the blaze, Daniel states: "Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished; and he rose in haste and spoke, saying to his counselors, 'Did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?' They answered and said to the king, 'True, O king.'

      "'Look!' he answered, 'I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God'" (vv. 24-25).
     
  5. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Son of God, not God the Son.

    Adam, Angels, us and others are all called Sons of God in the Bible.

    Yep, a blank statement that Jesus did not exist before the Incarnation.

    I repeat, God cannot die but Jesus did. His eternal spirit is the Son of no one. The First, Second and Third Persons of the Trinity are co equal in every way.

    Why do you think in theology all OT reverences use the First, Second and Third Persons terminology while the NT uses Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Because the roles of Father and Son did not exist until the Incarnation.
     
  6. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    Difficult to wrap my head around due to the nature of God and the relationship of the Trinity.

    But if you think logically and not doctrinally you will see the truth of what is being stated.
    In eternity past there was no flesh only the promise of flesh in the form of Christ.
    In human history past from Adam onward, there was no Jesus, only the promise of Jesus, right up until the moment of Incarnation.

    Incarnation and after is the full reality of Jesus Christ.

    So Jesus Christ did not exist until he was born.

    A promise is not made into a reality until it comes to fruition. Until then its only a promise.
     
  7. Richard Johnston

    Richard Johnston New Member

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    The statement that Jesus Christ did not exists in The Old Testament is an open, all-encompassing statement and therefore wrong. I have no argument with "God made flesh" didn't occur until the New Testament and his birth. Mary and Joseph was instructed to call him Jesus, they didn't do it. He has always been Jesus. He Jesus, has existed spiritually from before the foundation. He in fact is the creator. I think you need to stop trying to look at it with a human viewpoint. God said he is spirit and we must worship him in spirit and truth. I think the truth is, it is best to look at everything in scripture from a spiritual view. O.K., maybe not physically but, spiritually, Jesus has existed forever....Jesus said "He is the Alpha and the Omega"!
    He did not just come to fruition, that is a human / secular view......He was Jesus from the beginning!
     
  8. CTZonEdit

    CTZonEdit Site Administrator Staff Member

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    The bible is literally a book. Written with literal words that have literal meanings.
    God designed it to be this way. Not men.

    So stating that everything must be looked at spiritually is interesting to say the least. At what point do you determine what is to be as you put it, "spiritually" understood and what is to be literally understood as the truth?

    And by what "spirit" do you understand this truth?
    And how do you know this "spirit" is revealing to you the truth?
    And how do you test that this "spirit" is revealing the truth to you and to others besides the fact that "it told you?"
     
  9. Richard Johnston

    Richard Johnston New Member

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    Oh yes, let's just forget that it is full of symbolism, allegories and parables....nothing literal about that and it requires the Holy Spirit....either you have him or you don't !
    Have a good day and God Bless your future growth.
    You go the last word on this discussion!
     
  10. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Non literalist denying the Trinity and adhering to Replacement. Theology it appears. Maybe even a cult member into being a chosen one.

    If not true, tell us. So far you have dodged answering all of those issue. Always a red flag.
     
  11. Richard Johnston

    Richard Johnston New Member

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    • Perhaps I am a non-Literalist as you identify but I certainly do not deny the Trinity and, you have no cause for saying that other than your own than pride.
    • It is impossible for you to take many, allegories, symbolism's or parables of scripture literally, there has to be some form of discernment, usually by way of the Holy Spirit! Most studying Christians know that parables were meant to confuse, they were OBVIOUSly not literal, there was always a hidden message, which required super-natural guidance, possibly something that neither of you possess.
      Back to calling me names, my-my, what where YOUR forum guidelines again? Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior. I consider myself a "Born Again Christian", I believe in the Trinity.
    • Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image,......hmmm!, "in our image"....more than one, I wonder who "our" was ......and, in the beginning Jesus was. John8:58 "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"...hmmm!, your both such Literalists, even Jesus said he was before Abraham! Very interesting, Jesus said that he was "literally" before or in the Old Testament. What did you say about this again? Remember who you are!
    • Are you a "Born Again Christian'?
    • Do you know when you were born again, I do!
     
  12. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Being non literal explains a lot. You cannot prove your claims, so you resort to repetition, saying others are spiritually lacking your gift of understand, etc.

    Plus, you are wrong the symbolism, etc isn't literal. We use many such cliches today, but we all know what they literally mean, just as they did back then.

    As well, the rest are literally defined elsewhere in the Bible. Like the Dragon in Revelation is literally defined as Satan elsewhere.

    There are hidden meanings. But their solution is study to put the literal pieces together. Not Mystical Revelation.

    On who is born-again, we cannot say. Only God can.

    Sure, we can get strong indicators. But factually know? No.
    The Trinity, of course.
    Jesus is fully human and fully man. "I AM" refers to his divinity, not his humanity.
    I fully remember who I am. I also know The Word is the "I AM" who became flesh by taking on flesh.

    Jesus is not a name of God in the OT.

    Again, you fail to quote all. Back up to:
    Abraham saw God, all three persons at once. Yet here Jesus was future tense.

    Jesus can justly refer to his divine spirit as well as his human flesh. And that is exactly what he did here.

    I repeat, God cannot die, but Jesus did. You cannot explain that in your theology.
     
  13. Richard Johnston

    Richard Johnston New Member

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    Please cancel my membership!
     
  14. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Just don't post. Your posts are part of the forum now.
     
  15. Richard Johnston

    Richard Johnston New Member

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    Gladly, have a blessed day!
     

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