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Catholicism and Salvation

Discussion in 'General Talk' started by Mungo, Mar 8, 2015.

  1. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    Core Issue claims that Catholics teach Salvation by works and made this posr:

    My response

    New Advent is a good site and I use it myself.

    However it not an official publication of the Catholic Church and I think it is better to go to authoritative Church documents rather than rely on second hand interpretations. By authoritative Church documents I mean, for example, documents such as those from General Councils and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

    The major document on Justification was produced at the sixth session of the Council of Trent.

    CHAPTER VIII.
    In what manner it is to be understood, that the impious is justified by faith, and gratuitously.

    And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.


    Note the two items I have emboldened.

    1. we are therefore said to be justified by faith

    2. none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification.

    This is eactly what Eph 2:8-9 says.

    And from The Catechism of the Catholic Church:
    1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favour, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life. (Cf Jn 1:12-18;17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2Pet 1:3-4) - italics original

    1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism: (Rom 3:22; cf 6:3-4)

    But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. (Rom 6:8-11)

    The Catholic Church does not teach salvation by works
     
  2. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Problem is you parsed the statement. It goes on to say:
    Consent of the RCC? Not Biblical.
    The Bible says by our faith and repentance via the grace of Christ. Period.

    I have listened to debates between Biblical theologians ans scholars and RCC theologians. Most assuredly the Advent statement accurate. They change the meaning of grace to being allow the works of justification/salvation.

    The Bible says have faith, then repent and you are saved right there, immediately.
    No, It is not.

    If what you claim is true, then get rid of the confessionals, penance and the doctrine of purgatory. Those are all works based teachings not found in the Bible.
    But the RCC process is not what the Bible teaches.
    And yet the RCC teaches Conditional Salvation, the need to repent to a Priest, pay penance, pay for unrepeated sins in Purgatory, etc.

    In the RCC you have to work to gain salvation and to maintain it. Otherwise you lose it. As well, all salvation flows through the Catholic Church and baptism is required for salvation. As are the sacraments.
    Read
    Read
    Read
    There are many more, but the repeated theme, from all these Catholic sources, is there is only salvation via the RCC and grace allows the works of salvation.

    The problem is with what you posted is, once again, the are parsed quotes. When read in the totality of all the material what I have said is verified.

    The RCC has never had a problem redefining terms or adding to the Bible

    The RCC cannot be found in the Bible.
    Most assuredly it does.
     
  3. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    All it is saying is that this is not some new doctrine but is formally defining what has always been taught. It must be understood in the way that it has always been understood. As it goes on to say:
    to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God.

    Do you have a problem that understanding?

    That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence

    That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence

    That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence

    Yes it is

    All irrelevant to this discussion. You do have a habit of wandering off.

    Please keep focussed on the teaching about justification.

    Yes it is

    The Catholic Church does not teach conditional salvation

    Untrue

    I wouldn’t accept anything form Catholic Doors Ministry

    Why can't you quote from official Catholic sources?


    An anti-Catholic site.

    Yes, I have been quoting from the Catechism. But better to use the official one on the Vatican web site:

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

    What is the problem with what you see in the Catechism?

    More what? Dodgy sites?

    And you are wrong in your understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches. I suppose that’s not surprising if you garner it from dodgy sites?

    I’ve posted complete paragraphs to make a specific point. If you have issues then post the text you have issues with. And explain what you find objectionable

    That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence

    RCC is a term that was invented by Protestants as a pejorative term for the Catholic Church.

    The Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus founded.

    However you are going off-topic yet again.


    Not it does not.

    I've come across many Protestants who seem to think that giving their personal opinion is good enough, whereas Catholics have to quote chapter and verse from the Bible.

    Do you actually have a Bible?

    If so why do you not quote from it as evidence of your claims?
     
  4. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    A suggestion that might help to keep the discussion more focussed

    Regarding Salvation/Justification I think there are two issues that we need to separate out.

    Some Protestants believe in ‘Once Saved Always Saved’. Catholic, Orthodox, and I suggest many Protestants, do not.

    The Catholic teaching I am trying to present with my quotes from the Council of Trent and the Catechism concerns our initial salvation/justification.

    It seems to me that regarding that particular point we can leave aside whether OSAS is true or not. We can discuss how one is initially saved/justified whether we believe that condition is permanent or not.

    If necessary OSAS can be discussed later.

    Do you agree?
     
  5. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    The problem here is exactly what I have been eluding to, meaning you are have yet to back Catholic teachings with the Bible. You keep referring to RCC sources as if they are scripture.

    You are demanding a negative proof claim to disprove the RCC. The fact they do not exist in the Bible proves you are claiming man made, extra Biblical sources as proof.

    I am still waiting for you to post proof from the Bible that says baptism, sacraments, priests or any of the other RCC declaration are required for salvation.

    As for not providing scripture, I actually have with Ephesians.But I will go much further:
    • (Ephesians 2:8,9 ) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."
    • (Mark 10:25-27) " It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. {26} And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? {27} And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible."
    • (Romans 3:20) "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
    • (Romans 11:6) "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
    • (Galatians 2:16) "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
    • (2 Timothy 1:9) "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"
    • (Titus 3:5) "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"
    • (Acts 4:12) "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
    • (1 Timothy 2:5) "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"
    • (John 3:16) "¶ For God so loved the world, that he gave hisonly begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
    • (John 3:36) "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
    • (John 8:24) " I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."
    • (John 10:1) " Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber."
    • (John 10:9) " I am the door:by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."
    • (John 14:6) "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
    • (1 Corinthians 3:11) "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."
    • (1 John 5:12) "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
    • (John 3:16) "¶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
    • (John 11:25-26) "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: {26} And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"
    • (Acts 16:31) "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."
    • (Romans 10:9-10) "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. {10} For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
    • (1 John 5:1) "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him."
    • (Revelation 3:20) " Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door,I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."
    • (John 1:12) "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"
    • (Galatians 4:6) "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."
    • (Ephesians 3:17) "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,"
    • (Psalms 37:24) "Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand."
    • (John 3:36a) "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life"
    • (John 6:37) " All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
    • (John 10:28) " And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
    • (Romans 8:38-39) "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, {39} Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
    • (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. {12} Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; {13} Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. {14} If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. {15} If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
    • (1 Corinthians 5:5) "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
    • (Hebrews 13:5) "Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."
    • (2 Timothy 2:13) "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."
    • (1 John 5:13) "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
    There is no priesthood here, no intervening RCC through which salvation flows, no sacraments, no purgatory, nothing RCC.

    Now, it is your turn to give Biblical support for the RCC teaching on salvation.

    You really need to get over calling things such as using RCC as a pejorative, etc. It is an abbreviation for ease of use.

    I also hope you realize you cannot lump all the secular world calls Christian into being just Protestant or RCC. In example, Eastern Orthodox is no more RCC than a Pentecostal is a Baptist or non denominational.

    Or that all are members of a denomination. I am non denominational, in example.

    Words carry meaning. If we do not agree on meanings we cannot communicate easily.

    Time to knock off trying to say I don't know what I am talking about and do not offer proof. Also stop the negative proof claims and demands, they are not admissible in any formal debate, court of law or logic class.
     
  6. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    I use Catholic Sources to prove what the Catholic Church actually teaches, not to prove that what it teaches is true. You are claiming that the Catholic Church teaches “x” when it does not. Therefore I need to use Catholic sources to prove that it does not teach “x” as you claim.

    Do you understand?

    You have made the claim that the Catholic Church did not exist until centuries after Christ.

    Where is your evidence?

    Are we discussing just initial justification as I suggested?

    I agree with all those scriptures, though what point you are trying to prove with them is unclear.

    You are going off at a tangent again.

    Moreover there is very little difference between the Orthodox and the Catholic Church. For 1,000 years they were one Church.

    A Church of one you mean. I think that is not what Jesus meant when he said "may they be one" (Jn 17:22)

    I certainly agree with that.

    You haven’t given proof for the vast majority of your claims and those for which you have done so are irrelevant or refuted.

    Would you like me to list all the claims that you have made for which you have offered no proof?

    What negative claims have I made?

    It’s time for you to stop prevaricating.

    I made a suggestion that we start with (& stick to) initial justification/salvation without all these deviations you keep bringing in.

    Do you agree?
     
  7. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    After 53 years of study, decades of discussion and debate, etc. there is a distinct pattern cult and practitioners of false doctrine follow.You are solidly in that pattern.

    Use the Bible to show me the RCC, RCC priesthood, the RCC being the intermediary of salvation on the earth, baptism, sacraments, etc being required for salvation, the Pope, the confessional, penance, purgatory, etc.

    You cannot because they do not exist in the Bible,
     
  8. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    This thread is about salvation which you claimed you wanted to discuss.

    Do you want to discuss it or have the quotations I have given you show that the Catholic Church teaches salvation by grace through faith as Eph 2:8 says?

    Or are you just tryhing to digress?

    I've suggested that we stick to initial justification/salvation to stop this digressing tendancy of yours. Do you agree or not because I'm thinking you do not want an honest discussion and debate?
     
  9. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    No, I am saying I want you to provide Biblical support for your position on salvation. You keep wanting to go back to what the RCC says.

    So pick a verse on salvation and let us discuss what it says and means by word definition, grammar, context etc. We can connect it to related verses to build on the meanings as we go.

    Or pick a verse on justification.

    I am not digressing. I am trying to get it through to you I do not accept what the RCC teaches, so you need to prove you case for the RCC from the Bible.

    Set aside the RCC and let us build a picture, meaning and reality from the Bible about salvation, justification, sanctification, etc. But one topic at a time.

    Stop quoting RCC. It is not the Bible.
     
  10. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    As I'm going away tomorrow morning (it's now evening UK time) I'll give you a lot of verses and you can take your time to examine them.


    We are saved by grace.

    But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they.. (Acts 15:11)

    For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God (Eph 2:8)

    Although grace is a gift it doesn’t mean there is nothing for us to do.

    Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand (Rom 5:1-2).

    Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain. (2Cor 6:1)

    See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God (Heb 12:15)

    Jesus gives us access to grace. It’s not automatic. We have to obtain it.

    So how do we get access to this grace?

    How do we obtain the grace we need to be saved?

    In other words - what do we need to do to be saved?

    Well Jesus told us

    “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptised will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” (Mk 16:15-165)

    In these words Jesus sets out the basic methodology our initial justification

    preach the gospel; believe the gospel; be baptised.

    We can see these three steps in the Acts of the Apostles.

    At Pentecost (Acts 2:14-40)
    But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words……Jesus of Nazareth, … you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death….Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ…. [preach]

    Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” (believe)

    Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins…..Then those who gladly received his word were baptised [be baptised)

    Philip in Samaria (Acts 8:5-12)

    Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. [preach]

    But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, [believe]

    both men and women were baptized. [be baptised]

    You can see exactly the same pattern with (though not all steps are explicit):

    Philip with the Ethiopian (Acts 8:26-38)

    Cornelius (Acts 10:34-48)

    Lydia (Acts 16:13-15)

    The Jailer (Acts 16:30-33)

    12 men at Ephesus (Acts 19:1-5)


    Baptism and Salvation

    You seem to doubt that baptism is salvific so here are some verses relating baptism to salvation.

    Verses that explicitly say baptism save us:

    1. Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved (Mk 16:16)

    2. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, (1Pet 3:21)

    3. Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day. ……. And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved. (Acts 2:41….47)

    Verses that implicitly say baptism saves us:

    4. Or are you unaware that we who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection. (Rom 6:3-4)

    5. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1Cor 11:16)

    6. “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (Jn 3;5)

    7. “..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” (Titus 3:5)

    Note the parallelism between these last two.

    no one can enter the kingdom of God/ he saved us
    born of water/ water of rebirth
    born of Spirit./ renewal by the Holy Spirit

    Verses that link baptism to some aspect of salvation:

    8. Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. (Acts 2:38)

    9. Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. (Acts 22:16).

    10. let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (Heb 10:22)
    There are parallels between Heb 10:22 and 1Pet 3:21

    11. You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions; (Col 2:11-13)

    12. all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (Gal 3:27).

    13. “In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2:11-12)

    14. As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptised into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit. (1Cor 12:12-13).
    Baptism brings us into the body of Christ (the Church).

    15. This text also shows this: one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; (Eph 4:4-5)

    16. Through baptism we are brought into the new covenant “In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2:11-12)
    This clearly links a “spiritual circumcision” with baptism, a link from baptism to the covenant, not through physical circumcision (as in the Old Covenant) but a spiritual one.

    17. For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:26-27)

    Paul tells us in Romans 9:8 “That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.” It is in baptism (with water) that we become children of the promise; we are made children of God.
     
  11. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Now we are getting somewhere. You gave verses I fully expected you to give, but neglected to provide all the verses on the topic.

    The issue is water verses baptism of the Holy Spirit.

    All born again receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit immediately upon repentance. No water required.

    Now you are demanding works for salvation. Water baptism is a work.

    Here are a few verses that disprove you claim:
    No water baptism.
    No water baptism.
    It is interesting you didn't deal with all the verses I listed with no mention of Baptism.
    Not two Baptisms for salvation, only one.

    There was no salvation until Christ died and resurrected. So water is a declaration, not an act of salvation.

    Now, you also jump to the claim saying "baptism" means water. You cannot prove that.
    It says baptized by one Spirit, not water.

    No water here.

    Problem for you here is I already shown you verses where people were saved without water baptism. But all saved receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit
    Yep, all are born of water and the Holy Spirit. The water of our mothers and the Holy Spirit.

    Finally:
    You have made a definitive declaration I have shown to be false.








    Water Baptism is a sign of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit:[/QUOTE]
     
  12. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    Then it is disappointing that you just ignore them and make no effort to refute them. I gave you over 20 verses and you have ignored the lot.

    Please do not try and redefine the issue.

    The issue is how one is initially justified/saved.

    Asserted without evidence

    Asserted without evidence

    1. This was before Jesus died.
    2. No "spirit baptism" either.

    “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water
    That’s not water baptism?

    Yes, I agree with that.

    Not really. You wanted the Catholic position so I have it to you. Now you seem to be trying to ignore it

    Paul tells us that he baptised (see 1 Cor 1). However that was not the main part of Paul’s mission. If you look back at my post you will see that I said that Jesus gave us basic methodology our initial justification – preach, believe, be baptised. Paul’s main mission was to preach the gospel. He had others with him to carry out the baptising.

    Yes, only one baptism for salvation and that was with water as I showed.

    Asserted without evidence.

    Are you claiming that Enoch (who walked with God), Abraham, Moses and David were not saved?

    Of course I can. I gave you a string of 17 scripture quotes to show that baptism is salvific. Many of those clearly are baptism with water. But I can go through all the proof if you want me to.

    The action is by the Holy Spirit when we are baptised in water.
    “..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” (Titus 3:5)
    It's the Holy Spirit that does the work.

    No "spirit baptism" either.

    You need to take ALL of scripture not just snip out one verse.

    You claim that but you haven’t shown it.

    Amniotic fluid is not water. Show me one place in the Bible where amniotic fluid is called water.

    The early father saw this verse as referring to baptism with water. Irenaeus was an important early father of the 2nd century. He was born about the year 130 and brought up in Smyrna and was a disciple of Polycarp who was the Bishop there. Polycarp himself was a disciple of the apostle John. Irenaeus writes:

    " 'And dipped himself,' says [the Scripture], 'seven times in Jordan.' It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" Irenaeus, Fragment, 34 (A.D. 190).
    Irenaeus clearly sees John 3:5 as baptism in water, and remember he was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John. So Irenaeus is confirming that John mean baptism with water.


    Yes, read that carefully "this water symbolises baptism that now saves you also" - baptism saves you.

    The only verse clearer than that is from Jesus himself who says

    "Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved" (Mk 16:16).

    Very explicit.
    You have done no such thing.

    Asserted without evidence.


    Something else for you to ponder. Writings of the early church father, from the first century onward, show that baptism with water for salvation was practiced exclusively. There is no mention of "spirit baptism".
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2015
  13. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    I am not. I am sticking to the Bible. You keep trying to insert RCC claims and definitions.
    I gave the verses, you are ignoring them.
    You demand water baptism, which is a work.
    Nor were those declared justified in the OT water baptized.

    But, when Christ preached to the justified spirits in Paradise in the Pit and then rose from the Pit, they followed him in "train." All by the power of the Holy Spirit. Still no water, but there is the Holy Spirit, who does the cleansing.

    I also posted verses telling you the Holy Spirit does the cleansing and there is only one baptism, that done by the Holy Spirit.
    They were already saved with Holy Spirit indwelling them.
    No, you do not. Water baptism is a work.
    [
    Not really. You wanted the Catholic position so I have it to you. Now you seem to be trying to ignore it[/QUOTE]
    No, I did not want the RCC position, which I already know. I told you we needed to discuss what the Bible says about salvation.
    Now you are adding to the what was said. It says nothing about others doing it for Him.

    The Gospel is totally about salvation and what we need to receive it. Paul did not include water in it.

    As for what you said before, yet again you are dragging RCC theology into this.

    This is about what the Bible says, not the RCC..
    No, you have done no such thing.

    And you keep contradicting yourself. You demand works and then also try to say no works. Make up your mind.
    Yes! They were justified per the Bible, not saved. The term saved is never used about OT saints.

    The Temple, ect, was looking forward to Christ. It was all about the blood. Blood always used regarding sin.

    When OT saints died they could not go to heaven because they had not been cleanses yet. Only Christ's blood, as administered by the Holy Spirit, can cleanse.

    But, when Christ rose from the Pit, by the power of the Holy Spirit, after he had preached to them and they accepted him by faith and repentance through faith in in Christ, they went with him to heaven.

    Why and how? The blood had been shed and the Holy Spirit baptized them. Now they could enter heaven, not before.

    I gave you the verse telling you water only cleanses the flesh, but the Holy Spirit the spirit.
    Absolutely not. People are baptized in the Holy Spirit to be saved, water to declare.

    John the Baptist made it quite clear the Holy Spirit baptism is superior to water. That Christ would bring it.

    Also it was never given until he resurrected, but water was.
    It does not say that anywhere in the Bible. You are injecting RCC theology.
    It says by one Spirit, not water, we are baptized.
    It is talking about what we must do to be saved. It does not say we must get water baptized.

    The baptism is not something we do as a work. When we do what is required of us in the verse, the Holy Spirit comes and does it on his own. We don't even have to know it will happen or should happen.
    I repeat this fact, ALL scripture. The must ALL harmonize.
    Go back to those verses and show me where it says there was water.
    Yet again, you use negative proof claims. Here meaning it was not said if there was or wasn't, hence there was.

    There is no conflict with what I have been saying. You have to have the water, I do not.
    When a woman is close to giving birth, do you ever hear her "Amniotic fluid broke?" Of course not, her "Water
    broke."

    Ever been around when it happened? I have.
    Of course all according to the RCC history. Other early Christian theologians, etc. are ignored..

    " 'And dipped himself,' says [the Scripture], 'seven times in Jordan.' It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" Irenaeus, Fragment, 34 (A.D. 190).
    Irenaeus clearly sees John 3:5 as baptism in water, and remember he was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John. So Irenaeus is confirming that John mean baptism with water.


    Really? You actually want to try to argue water baptism symbolizes water baptism?

    A symbol is one thing that symbolizes something else. Like a flag is a national symbol.


    Where does it say water?

    I gave verses showing receiving the Holy Spirit without water baptism, water symbolizes the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and there is only one baptism that saves (meaning born again).

    Also an Apostles says the Gospel was his mission, not water baptism. The Gospel preaches salvation.

    Also showed you are simply trying to force baptism to mean water.

    You cannot provide a single verse definitively saying water (not as a read in) saves. I have give verses showing Christ's blood does save and is administered by the Holy Spirit, not water, via the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

    Plus Christ was water baptised, so Biblically, water has a meaning other than salvation.

    You have no evidence.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2015
  14. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    CoreIssue,

    You are constantly evading the points I make.

    Perhaps I say to much which allows to you to duck and weave.

    You are constantly making assertions without evidence.

    For example:

    “All born again receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit immediately upon repentance. No water required.”
    Asserted without evidence.

    “Water baptism is a work.”
    Asserted without evidence

    “There was no salvation until Christ died and resurrected. So water is a declaration, not an act of salvation.”
    Asserted without evidence

    “Problem for you here is I already shown you verses where people were saved without water baptism. But all saved receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit”
    Asserted without evidence

    “They [Cornelius and household] were already saved with Holy Spirit indwelling them.”
    Asserted without evidence

    “People are baptized in the Holy Spirit to be saved, water to declare.”
    Asserted without evidence

    “Other early Christian theologians, etc. are ignored..”
    Asserted without evidence

    You claim to want to biblical proof. When I give it you then you just ignore it.

    Do you want a serious discussion or are you just playing games because from my perspective you are wasting my time.
     
  15. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    This is going in circles and your constantly saying all I say is assertion without proof but never say why the verses do not apply.

    Let me be very clear here. You cannot simple insert words and actions into verses that are not stated.

    So, time to zero in one a singular key point and not let you off of it until you actually explain your answer.

    It is crystal clear to me you are demanding to use RCC definitions of words, not linguistic ones. That is abundantly clear on your usages of water baptism and grace.
    Here are word definitions, from the Bible from the languages it was written in.
    Water baptism is a work, by definition, which the Bible rejects in receiving salvation.
    It is a gift. The bible makes it clear if a work is required then it is not a gift.

    Now, please reconcile all of this to defend you position. No RCC theology, use the Bible only.

    Be honest, you cannot.
     
  16. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    This definition is not from the Bible. It is from James Strong (August 14, 1822 – August 7, 1894).

    "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph 2:8-9 - KJV)

    The KJV was produced in 1611, about 280 years before Strong produced his definitions.

    So don't pretend Strong's definition is any more biblical than current dictionary definitions.

    The Concise Oxford English Dictionary gives several definitions of work. The first and most general is:
    “activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result.”

    This is similar to that in the Collins Concise English Dictionary:
    “physical or mental effort directed towards doing or making something”
     
  17. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    The Strong's and other lexicons agree.

    Did you read? Both your definitions are part of Strong's.

    You really do not understand word definitions from the Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew do not exactly line up one to one with the English.

    In example, "hand," in the Greek, includes the wrist. In the English, it does not.

    Christ was nailed through the wrists, not the hands. The hands cannot support the weight of a body..

    So, the RCC crucifixes, stigmata, etc, are not actually Biblical.

    As for the KJV, read the materials posted elsewhere on that topic, you might be surprised on the history. It is archaic English, as well, where words have changed over time. That is why you have to return to ancient manuscripts, which the Textus Receptus is not.,

    Incidentally, the KJV says the same thing the NIV does.You cannot do a thing to earn or merit salvation.

    You have avoided answering the question reconciling grace, gift and works because you cannot.
     
  18. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    Good, now we are getting somewhere. You agree then that the COED definition is valid:
    “activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result.”

    But note that I said this was the first and most general. The COED has other definitions that are subsets of this general definition. As you yourself noted the definitions of words are important. If we use the same word but with different meanings, switching between them, then we are committing the fallacy of equivocation.

    Under this general definition, anything we do, physical or mental is a work.
    Baptism is a work
    Believing is a work
    Repenting is a work.

    You quoted this earlier:
    ..because, if you confess with your lips [work] that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart [work] that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Rom 10:9)

    As I pointed out earlier (and you ignored), although grace is a gift it doesn’t mean there is nothing for us to do.
    Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand (Rom 5:1-2).
    See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God (Heb 12:15)
    Jesus gives us access to grace. It’s not automatic. We have to obtain it. We have to do something

    Repenting and believing are works, just as much as baptism, that result in salvation. This would appear to contradict Eph 2:8-9. Of course they do not because scripture does not contradict itself. The contradiction disappears when you realise that a “work” in Eph 2:8-9 is a particular kind of work not just work in general.

    And that is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches – you cannot earn or merit salvation.

    we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.
    (Council of Trent, Session 6 Chapter VIII)

    However work that earns something is a subset meaning of work:
    "such activity as a means of earning income" - which is the second definition given by the COED.

    It is in this sense that Paul uses the word. Work done to earn income is work that is done under a contract, under law, where we have a right to something and the other party is under a legal obligation to deliver. If we do that sort of work for God, as for an employer, expecting wages (something we have a right to) then we will be judged under that Law and will always be found wanting and will be condemned to death.
    “Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due.” (Rom 4:4)

    Paul uses the phrase “works of the law” most notably in Gal 2:16
    yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified.

    That is why we can only receive salvation as a gift
    “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom 6:23)

    In both this and Rom 4:4 Paul contrasts wages (which are earned) with gift (which is not).

    Doing something that is prescribed in order to receive a gift does not make that which is given any less of a gift.

    For example, a man has a garage full of food parcels to give to the poor. All a poor man has to do is go to the man’s house, ring the door bell and ask for food. He is then given a food parcel. That he has to do something (go to the house, ring the door bell and ask for food) does not mean that the food parcel is no longer a gift. He has not earned it.

    Here is a biblical example. When the Israelites were being bitten by serpents in the desert (Num 21), God instructed Moses to make a bronze serpent and mount it on a pole. He then gave instructions that when an Israelite was bitten he had to do something. He had to look at the bronze serpent. God then healed him.

    The healing was a gift. The man did not earn the healing. It was pure gift by God. But he had to do something before God acted.

    Another example:
    And they came to Jericho; and as he was leaving Jericho with his disciples and a great multitude, Bartimaeus, a blind beggar, the son of Timaeus, was sitting by the roadside. And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out and say, "Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!" And many rebuked him, telling him to be silent; but he cried out all the more, "Son of David, have mercy on me!" And Jesus stopped and said, "Call him." And they called the blind man, saying to him, "Take heart; rise, he is calling you." And throwing off his mantle he sprang up and came to Jesus. And Jesus said to him, "What do you want me to do for you?" And the blind man said to him, "Master, let me receive my sight." And Jesus said to him, "Go your way; your faith has made you well." And immediately he received his sight and followed him on the way. (Mk 10:46-52).

    If Bartimaeus had not called out, if he had not asked Jesus for healing he would not have been healed. Again he had to do something. No way did his actions earn the healing.

    I could give many similar examples. The point is that many times God prescribes some action for us to perform before he acts. What we do does not earn God’s action. There is no equivalence between what we do and what God does or gives us.

    I just have.
     
  19. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Wow, what a spin.

    I did not accept your definition source. I said the one portion you quoted was also part of the original language meaning.

    From my quote:
    That kills all your effort and claims.

    Even today no one accepts the claim that asking for something is work.

    And you keep dodging. Here you dodged:
    • English vs Greek definition differences. Such as "hand."
    • Your crucifixes are not accurate
    • That the Bible rejects works for salvation
    • That it declares salvation is by grace, is a gift and by faith, none of which are works per the verse
    • The definition of "gift"
    Make up your mind. Either you believe salvation is by works you perform or it is a gift for the asking, if you have faith in Christ and his grace.

    There are works resulting from salvation. Water Baptism is one of them.

    How much clearer does it have to be said?

    Works are not grace. Grace is not work.

    You do not pay for a gift. If it is earned, then it is not a gift. Salvation is a gift. Rewards in eternity are earned by works.
     
  20. Mungo

    Mungo Getting Started

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    1. You said “Both your definitions are part of Strong's.” I took you at your word. Was that a mistake?

    2. I didn’t claim that asking for something is work, though under the general definition it is:
    “activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result.”
    Asking for some thing is a mental and physical effort in order to achieve a result.

    I actually pointed out that believing and repenting are both work. Both are mental effort to achieve a result.

    Confessing with your mouth is both a physical and mental effort to achieve a result.

    Believing is a mental effort to achieve a result.

    I have dodged nothing. I just ignored what is irrelevant.

    I have shown it is a gift but that does not mean we do not have to do something. It’s all in my post. Please read it.

    We are not discussing post salvation. Please keep to the issue we are discussing.

    I explained all that in most post.

    I spent a long time constructing that post, giving you a full answer including several scriptural quotes. I expected a properly considered response.

    Quite frankly your trite dismissal is quite insulting.
     

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