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Alter2Ego's Response to False Doctrines and Religions

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
1 Timothy 4 New International Version (NIV)
4 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
2 Timothy 4New International Version (NIV)
4 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
2 Peter 2New International Version (NIV)
False Teachers and Their Destruction
2 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
We see it all around us. Christian Cults, Denominational Doctrines contradicting the Bible, elevation of people to being gods, focus on money, not Christ, sexual sin by preachers, praying for $62 million jet planes and so much more.
 
Last edited:

Alter2Ego

New Member
We see it all around us. Christian Cults, Denominational Doctrines contradicting the Bible, elevation of people to being gods, focus on money, not Christ, sexual sin by preachers, praying for $62 million jet planes and so much more.

CoreIssue:

I have been gone from this forum for a couple years.

I find it interesting that you would raise the issue of "doctrines contradicting the Bible," considering your Statement of Faith in which Christendom's most contradictory doctrine--the Trinity-- is heartily embraced by you. In fact, you commented in your "cult" thread that any Christian who does not accept that God is a Trinity is to be considered a member of a cult. Never mind that there is not one single verse of scripture in Jehovah's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, in support of the man-made tradition of a 3-in-1 god.

If you would like to discuss Trinity (or any other controversial topics), do not hesitate to present three or four (3 or 4) scriptural quotations from the Judeo-Christian Bible that you think support "Trinity". Of course that is with the understanding that you are willing to reason on the Scriptures and there will be no personal attacks and insults from you.

We can either discuss controversial topics respectfully, using the Judeo-Christian Bible as the authority, or else we will not discuss them at all.


Alter2Ego
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
First of all, please do not lecture me. If you read the rules courteous discussion and debate are required.

Yes, I remember you. You are a Jehovah Witness.

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,...
The Hebrew word for God is Elohim. El is singular and Elohim is plural. When used with singular adjectives, etc, it means a uniplural, more than one acting together as one. When used with plurals it means gods, not God.

All references to pagan gods use plurals. All reference to God uses singulars.

In verse 26 "us" and "our" are plurals.

In Genesis 18 you see one Lord, 3 people appearing to Abram, Abram speaking to the as the singular Lord with all three of them answering him as one. The Hebrew for Lord is Jehovah or Yahweh, then name/title of God. So, again, Trinity.

In Mathew 28 you see:
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
"In the name of means personage, name, title and rank.

You also see, in the NT, Christ saying to see him is to see the Father and the Holy Spirit will come in his place on the earth. And in the above verse, the Apostles worshiped him as God. So, again Trinity.
John 1
New International Version (NIV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
Before time began the Logos, the reason behind all, was both God and with God. The Second Person is God and was with the First and Second Persons. Separately and together they are God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The linguistics prove Trinity. Genesis proves they are three individual persons of equality and unity.
 

Alter2Ego

New Member
First of all, please do not lecture me. If you read the rules courteous discussion and debate are required.

CoreIssue:

Nobody is lecturing you. I am simply making my position clear: I will not have discussions with anyone who thinks personal attacks is acceptable debating strategy. Once the mud-slinging begins, I will simply disappear.


Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,...
The Hebrew word for God is Elohim. El is singular and Elohim is plural. When used with singular adjectives, etc, it means a uniplural, more than one acting together as one. When used with plurals it means gods, not God.

That is incorrect. The Hebrew word Elohim can be both singular and plural, but it is never "uniplural" when used with singular adjectives. In fact, the word "uniplural" is a Trinitarian invention that does not even appear in Merriam-Webster's Dictionary.

When used with singular adjectives, Elohim is usually with reference to a singular god. This is confirmed by numerous sources, including the following:

Elohim (אֱלהִים) is a grammatically singular or plural noun for "god" or "gods" in both modern and ancient Hebrew language. When used with singular verbs and adjectives elohim is usually singular, "god" or especially, the God. When used with PLURAL VERBS and ADJECTIVES elohim is usually plural, "gods" or "powers".

Elohim is a plural formation of eloah, the latter being an expanded form of the Northwest Semitic noun il. It is the usual word for "god" in the Hebrew Bible, referring with singular verbs both to the one God of Israel, and also in a few examples to other singular pagan deities.

With plural verbs the word is also used as a true plural with the meaning "gods".
http://www.definitions.net/definition/elohim



Alter2Ego
 

Alter2Ego

New Member
In Genesis 18 you see one Lord, 3 people appearing to Abram, Abram speaking to the as the singular Lord with all three of them answering him as one. The Hebrew for Lord is Jehovah or Yahweh, then name/title of God. So, again, Trinity.
CoreIssue:

The account at Genesis 18 does nothing for Christendom's Trinity. That account indicates Jehovah sent three angels to Abraham, to inform him that Sodom and Gomorrah was going to be destroyed.

If you are going to argue that those three angels were Jehovah the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the holy spirit, then you have a problem. Here is why: The account makes it clear that at least two out of the three individuals that Abraham saw at Genesis 18:1-2 were angels. One of them stayed behind talking to Abraham, and the other two went on ahead to where Lot and his family lived--in Sodom.


"Now the two ANGELS arrived at Sodom by evening and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot caught sight of them, then he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the earth." (Genesis 19:1)

So you are left with a single individual from the three "men" that initially presented themselves to Abraham at Genesis 18:1-2. The one that remained with Abraham was consistently referred to as "Jehovah" because he played the role of Jehovah's chief spokesman at that particular point in time. But he was an angel just the same and not literally Almighty God Jehovah. Scripture makes that abundantly clear.


Alter2Ego
 

Alter2Ego

New Member
In Mathew 28 you see:
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
"In the name of means personage, name, title and rank.

You also see, in the NT, Christ saying to see him is to see the Father and the Holy Spirit will come in his place on the earth. And in the above verse, the Apostles worshiped him as God. So, again Trinity.

CoreIssue:

The above account does not say the disciples worshipped Jesus "as God". True, the Bible that you quoted from uses the expression "worshipped him" at verse 17. But even that translation did not say anything resembling "as God."

It was the custom of the time to bow down in respect before someone in authority, and that is what occurred in the above example. In fact, the correct translation of Matthew 28:17 is presented by a few Bibles where they use the expression "they bowed down to him" or "they prostrated themselves to him" or "they did homage to him", instead of the expression "they worshipped him."


"And when they saw him, they did homage to him: but some doubted." (Matthew 28:17 -- Darby Bible Translation)

"There they saw Him and prostrated themselves before Him. Yet some doubted." (Matthew 28:17 -- Weymouth New Testament)


"When they saw him, they bowed down to him, but some doubted." (Matthew 28:17 -- World English Bible)


I will address John 1:1 in a future post.


Alter2Ego
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
That is incorrect. The Hebrew word Elohim can be both singular and plural, but it is never "uniplural" when used with singular adjectives. In fact, the word "uniplural" is a Trinitarian invention that does not even appear in Merriam-Webster's Dictionary.
In the Hebrew -im makes any word plural.

Elohim is always used with plurals in the Bible when speaking of false gods. It is always used with singulars when referring to God.

Here is the Shema of Israel:
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Strong's Number: 430 Browse Lexicon
Original Word
Word Origin
~yhla plural of (0433)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
'elohiym TWOT - 93c
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
el-o-heem' Noun Masculine
Definition
  1. (plural)
    1. rulers, judges
    2. divine ones
    3. angels
    4. gods
  2. (plural intensive - singular meaning)
    1. god, goddess
    2. godlike one
    3. works or special possessions of God
    4. the (true) God
    5. God
A plural of unity constituting one.

I already provided verses proving Trinity in other ways. Here are other sources:
Link
And this Jewish link, pages 1 and 2, state it is a plural word, not singular than can be a uniplural.

Simply put, you are trying give dual meaning the word when your sources are talking about usage as a plural or a uniplural.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
In Genesis 18 you see one Lord, 3 people appearing to Abram, Abram speaking to the as the singular Lord with all three of them answering him as one. The Hebrew for Lord is Jehovah or Yahweh, then name/title of God. So, again, Trinity.
CoreIssue:

The account at Genesis 18 does nothing for Christendom's Trinity. That account indicates Jehovah sent three angels to Abraham, to inform him that Sodom and Gomorrah was going to be destroyed.

If you are going to argue that those three angels were Jehovah the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the holy spirit, then you have a problem. Here is why: The account makes it clear that at least two out of the three individuals that Abraham saw at Genesis 18:1-2 were angels. One of them stayed behind talking to Abraham, and the other two went on ahead to where Lot and his family lived--in Sodom.


"Now the two ANGELS arrived at Sodom by evening and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot caught sight of them, then he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the earth." (Genesis 19:1)

So you are left with a single individual from the three "men" that initially presented themselves to Abraham at Genesis 18:1-2. The one that remained with Abraham was consistently referred to as "Jehovah" because he played the role of Jehovah's chief spokesman at that particular point in time. But he was an angel just the same and not literally Almighty God Jehovah. Scripture makes that abundantly clear.


Alter2Ego
Wrong. It does not say a single word about angels with Abraham. It says "God" appeared as "three men."

Only God is called Lord in the Bible. Every angelic being rejected that title.

Abraham called the three one singular Lord. All three answered as one singular Lord.
Genesis 18 New International Version (NIV)
The Three Visitors
18 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord,a]">[a] do not pass your servant by. 4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.”

“Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.”
It does not say God appeared to Lot. It says two, not three, angels did.

All it says God went and looked. Did not say anyone else saw him/them.
 

Alter2Ego

New Member
That is incorrect. The Hebrew word Elohim can be both singular and plural, but it is never "uniplural" when used with singular adjectives. In fact, the word "uniplural" is a Trinitarian invention that does not even appear in Merriam-Webster's Dictionary.
In the Hebrew -im makes any word plural.

Elohim is always used with plurals in the Bible when speaking of false gods. It is always used with singulars when referring to God.

CoreIssue:

That is incorrect. But since you are making the claim that "im" at the end of a Hebrew word = plural, suppose you quote credible sources where such is confirmed?

In one of my last replies, I quoted a source that confirms that the Hebrew word "Elohim" can be used for SINGULAR god as well as for PLURAL gods. Notice the source again.


Elohim (אֱלהִים) is a grammatically singular or plural noun for "god" or "gods" in both modern and ancient Hebrew language. When used with singular verbs and adjectives elohim is usually singular, "god" or especially, the God. When used with PLURAL VERBS and ADJECTIVES elohim is usually plural, "gods" or "powers".

Elohim is a plural formation of eloah, the latter being an expanded form of the Northwest Semitic noun il. It is the usual word for "god" in the Hebrew Bible, referring with singular verbs both to the one God of Israel, and also in a few examples to other singular pagan deities.

With plural verbs the word is also used as a true plural with the meaning "gods".
http://www.definitions.net/definition/elohim

This is confirmed by the Encyclopedia Britannica which says "Elohim" is used for a singular false god--in the Bible and elsewhere. Below, from the Encyclopedia Britannica, are two of the SINGULAR false gods that are identified with the word "Elohim" (Chemosh and Astarte).

"A plural of majesty, the term Elohim-though sometimes used for other deities, such as the Moabite god Chemosh, the Sidonian goddess Astarte, and also for other majestic beings such as angels, kings, judges (the Old Testament shofetim), and the Messiah-is usually employed in the Old Testament for the one and only God of Israel, whose personal name was revealed to Moses as YHWH, or Yahweh (q.v.). When referring to Yahweh, elohim very often is accompanied by the article ha-, to mean, in combination, "the God,"and sometimes with a further identification Elohim hayyim, meaning "the living God."
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/185251/Elohim

The reality is that the word "Elohim" is used in the Bible even when it was with reference to a SINGULAR pagan god. Not only that, look at the portion bolded in light blue within the above quotation, from Encyclopedia Britannica. It says the same word "Elohim" is used with reference to a singular angel, king, or judge. In other words, "Elohim" does not always mean "god" or "gods". It is also used to identify persons that are in positions of power--such as an angel, a king, or a judge.

Alter2Ego
 

Alter2Ego

New Member
Here is the Shema of Israel:
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Strong's Number: 430 Browse Lexicon
Original Word
Word Origin
~yhla plural of (0433)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
'elohiym TWOT - 93c
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
el-o-heem' Noun Masculine
Definition
  1. (plural)
    1. rulers, judges
    2. divine ones
    3. angels
    4. gods
  2. (plural intensive - singular meaning)
    1. god, goddess
    2. godlike one
    3. works or special possessions of God
    4. the (true) God
    5. God
A plural of unity constituting one.

CoreIssue:

Nothing from your above quoted source says anything about "a plural of unity constituting one." In fact, your source actually confirms what I have been telling you all along: that the word "Elohym" or "Elohim" can refer to either a singular god or plural gods, while you insist it refers only to plural gods. Look at Item 2 from your above list. It says in plain English that it has a "singular meaning", then it proceeds to list five singular items, as follows:
(1) god, goddess;
(2) godlike one;
(3) works or special possessions of God;
(4) the (true) God;
(5) God


Your own source is working against you, CoreIssue.


I already provided verses proving Trinity in other ways. Here are other sources:
Link
And this Jewish link, pages 1 and 2, state it is a plural word, not singular than can be a uniplural.

Simply put, you are trying give dual meaning the word when your sources are talking about usage as a plural or a uniplural.

There is no such word as "uniplural"--not in Merriam Webster's Dictionary http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suggestions/uniplural nor in any of the dictionaries I searched. The word "uniplural" is a Trinitarian invention. I mentioned that to you earlier.

Alter2Ego
 

Alter2Ego

New Member
In Genesis 18 you see one Lord, 3 people appearing to Abram, Abram speaking to the as the singular Lord with all three of them answering him as one. The Hebrew for Lord is Jehovah or Yahweh, then name/title of God. So, again, Trinity.

CoreIssue:

The account at Genesis 18 does nothing for Christendom's Trinity. That account indicates Jehovah sent three angels to Abraham, to inform him that Sodom and Gomorrah was going to be destroyed.

If you are going to argue that those three angels were Jehovah the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the holy spirit, then you have a problem. Here is why: The account makes it clear that at least two out of the three individuals that Abraham saw at Genesis 18:1-2 were angels. One of them stayed behind talking to Abraham, and the other two went on ahead to where Lot and his family lived--in Sodom.

"Now the two ANGELS arrived at Sodom by evening and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot caught sight of them, then he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the earth." (Genesis 19:1)


Alter2Ego
Wrong. It does not say a single word about angels with Abraham. It says "God" appeared as "three men."

CoreIssue:

Your denials will not change reality. Of course the account mentions angels. I quoted it for you from Genesis 19:1. You should have no problem looking it up in your preferred Bible version. Genesis 18:22 informs the reader that two of three "men" that had appeared to Abraham then proceeded to Sodom. Notice below. Focus on the words in light blue.


"And the men turned their faces from there, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD." (Genesis 18:22 -- King James Version)


The Bible then identifies to the same two men as angels in Genesis 19:1. Again, focus on the words in light blue.


"Now the two ANGELS arrived at Sodom by evening and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot caught sight of them, then he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the earth." (Genesis 19:1)

Notice that Genesis 18:22 makes it clear that one of the individuals out of the three "men" stayed behind and continued talking with Abraham, while the other two "men. . . went toward Sodom." Genesis 19:1 identifies the two "men" who "went toward Sodom" as "the two angels arrived at Sodom." If you choose not to see the connection, that both Genesis 18:22 and Genesis 19:1 are talking about the exact same two individuals, whose problem is that?


Alter2Ego
 

Alter2Ego

New Member
So you are left with a single individual from the three "men" that initially presented themselves to Abraham at Genesis 18:1-2. The one that remained with Abraham was consistently referred to as "Jehovah" because he played the role of Jehovah's chief spokesman at that particular point in time. But he was an angel just the same and not literally Almighty God Jehovah. Scripture makes that abundantly clear.

Only God is called Lord in the Bible. Every angelic being rejected that title.

Abraham called the three one singular Lord. All three answered as one singular Lord.
Genesis 18 New International Version (NIV)
The Three Visitors
18 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord,a]">[a] do not pass your servant by. 4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.”

“Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.”

CoreIssue:

You are ignoring the fact that when Jehovah communicated with humans in the Bible, his frequent method was to send angels as his representatives. The humans would then address the angels as if they were addressing God himself because they realized the important role the particular angel or angels were playing at that point in time. You are also ignoring the fact that scripture says NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANYTIME.


"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18 -- King James Version)

So clearly, Abraham was not literally speaking with Jehovah at Genesis chapter 18. He was speaking with representatives of Jehovah, in that instance, three angels--two of whom, according to Genesis 19:1, then proceeded on to Sodom.


Alter2Ego
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
That is incorrect. The Hebrew word Elohim can be both singular and plural, but it is never "uniplural" when used with singular adjectives. In fact, the word "uniplural" is a Trinitarian invention that does not even appear in Merriam-Webster's Dictionary.
In the Hebrew -im makes any word plural.

Elohim is always used with plurals in the Bible when speaking of false gods. It is always used with singulars when referring to God.

CoreIssue:

That is incorrect. But since you are making the claim that "im" at the end of a Hebrew word = plural, suppose you quote credible sources where such is confirmed?

In one of my last replies, I quoted a source that confirms that the Hebrew word "Elohim" can be used for SINGULAR god as well as for PLURAL gods. Notice the source again.


Elohim (אֱלהִים) is a grammatically singular or plural noun for "god" or "gods" in both modern and ancient Hebrew language. When used with singular verbs and adjectives elohim is usually singular, "god" or especially, the God. When used with PLURAL VERBS and ADJECTIVES elohim is usually plural, "gods" or "powers".
What you fail to realize is you just showed and defined uniplural when used with the singulars to show plural of composition but singular in usage.

I posted sources showing that, including Jewish one.

No linguist will support your claim that -im is singular in composition. It is like adding an 's' or 'es' to English words.

Here, not they are plural and all have -im endings.
Here says make a Hebrew word plural by adding -im.
Elohim is a plural formation of eloah, the latter being an expanded form of the Northwest Semitic noun il. It is the usual word for "god" in the Hebrew Bible, referring with singular verbs both to the one God of Israel, and also in a few examples to other singular pagan deities.

With plural verbs the word is also used as a true plural with the meaning "gods".
http://www.definitions.net/definition/elohim
You used it before and it still points to a uniplural, not what you are claiming.
Provide a verse with an -im ending for pagan gods that is singular.
This is confirmed by the Encyclopedia Britannica which says "Elohim" is used for a singular false god--in the Bible and elsewhere. Below, from the Encyclopedia Britannica, are two of the SINGULAR false gods that are identified with the word "Elohim" (Chemosh and Astarte).
Chemosh is singular used with the Elohim as a descriptive.


Original Word Word Origin
~yhla plural of (0433)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
'elohiym TWOT - 93c
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
el-o-heem' Noun Masculine
Definition
  1. (plural)
    1. rulers, judges
    2. divine ones
    3. angels
    4. gods
  2. (plural intensive - singular meaning)
    1. god, goddess
    2. godlike one
    3. works or special possessions of God
    4. the (true) God
    5. God
False claim.

Chemosh is singular, not plural.

He is being compared and contrasted to Elohim, not identified as Elohim.

Again, provide a pagan god with an -im suffix.
"A plural of majesty, the term Elohim-though sometimes used for other deities, such as the Moabite god Chemosh, the Sidonian goddess Astarte, and also for other majestic beings such as angels, kings, judges (the Old Testament shofetim), and the Messiah-is usually employed in the Old Testament for the one and only God of Israel, whose personal name was revealed to Moses as YHWH, or Yahweh (q.v.). When referring to Yahweh, elohim very often is accompanied by the article ha-, to mean, in combination, "the God,"and sometimes with a further identification Elohim hayyim, meaning "the living God."
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/185251/Elohim
Plural of majesty is a concept not even invented until around 1100 AD Europe. Did not exist in Biblical times either in the Bible or any ancient document anywhere..

I was wondering when you were going to say that, since it an old anti-trinitarian argument JW's use.
The reality is that the word "Elohim" is used in the Bible even when it was with reference to a SINGULAR pagan god. Not only that, look at the portion bolded in light blue within the above quotation, from Encyclopedia Britannica. It says the same word "Elohim" is used with reference to a singular angel, king, or judge. In other words, "Elohim" does not always mean "god" or "gods". It is also used to identify persons that are in positions of power--such as an angel, a king, or a judge.
Nope. Plural on angels, etc.
Strong's Number: 0430 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
~yhla plural of (0433)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
'elohiym TWOT - 93c
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
el-o-heem' Noun Masculine
Definition
  1. (plural)
    1. rulers, judges
    2. divine ones
    3. angels
    4. gods
  2. (plural intensive - singular meaning)
    1. god, goddess
    2. godlike one
    3. works or special possessions of God
    4. the (true) God
    5. God
Finally, you did not quote from the Encyclopedia Britannica fully because it defeated your argument. You neglected this part:
Though Elohim is plural in form, it is understood in the singular sense. Thus, in Genesis the words, “In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth,” Elohim is monotheistic in connotation, though its grammatical structure seems polytheistic.
Singular god on economization but plural in composition... Uniplural!


In everything you provided it says Elohim is plural in composition and singular in usage.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are are each God separately and together are God.

I have given you the proofs before that is what the NT states.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
You are ignoring the fact that when Jehovah communicated with humans in the Bible, his frequent method was to send angels as his representatives. The humans would then address the angels as if they were addressing God himself because they realized the important role the particular angel or angels were playing at that point in time. You are also ignoring the fact that scripture says NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANYTIME.
It says God appeared to him as men, not angels.


And God appeared to Moses as Burning Bush.

No one has seen God in his full glory and power.

You cannot rewrite the Bible to fit your theology.
"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18 -- King James Version)
Try some modern English to understand the verse more clearly.
18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.[/
QUOTE]
And John 1:1 also says Jesus is God:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
So clearly, Abraham was not literally speaking with Jehovah at Genesis chapter 18. He was speaking with representatives of Jehovah, in that instance, three angels--two of whom, according to Genesis 19:1, then proceeded on to Sodom.
It clearly says God appeared to Abraham. No\ way to explain that away.


Alter2Ego
 

Alter2Ego

New Member
In the Hebrew -im makes any word plural.

Elohim is always used with plurals in the Bible when speaking of false gods. It is always used with singulars when referring to God.

CoreIssue:

That is incorrect. But since you are making the claim that "im" at the end of a Hebrew word = plural, suppose you quote credible sources where such is confirmed?

In one of my last replies, I quoted a source that confirms that the Hebrew word "Elohim" can be used for SINGULAR god as well as for PLURAL gods. Notice the source again.

Elohim (אֱלהִים) is a grammatically singular or plural noun for "god" or "gods" in both modern and ancient Hebrew language. When used with singular verbs and adjectives elohim is usually singular, "god" or especially, the God. When used with PLURAL VERBS and ADJECTIVES elohim is usually plural, "gods" or "powers".
http://www.definitions.net/definition/elohim
What you fail to realize is you just showed and defined uniplural when used with the singulars to show plural of composition but singular in usage.

I posted sources showing that, including Jewish one.

CoreIssue:

I have already explained that "uniplural" is a Trinitarian invention. No such word actually exists in the real world except in Trinitarian lingo.

I also quoted sources, including Encyclopedia Britannica, and they both say the same thing: that Elohym/Elohim can be used to refer to EITHER a singular god OR plural gods. This contradicts your claim that Elohim always refers to plural gods.

Below is a third source saying the identical thing--your beloved Strong's Concordance. Focus on the two words that I bolded in light blue and red within the quotation.


"H430אלהים'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty."
(Source: Strong's Concordance)
http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=hebrewlexicon&isindex=433

Notice that Strong's Concordance says Elohym/Elohim can be used either for "God" (singular) or "gods" (plural). So your claim that Elohim refers only to plural gods has now been debunked by three different sources. Not only that, Elohim is also used for magistrates/judges. Are you telling this forum that human magistrates/judges are literal gods because the word "Elohim" was applied to them?

Alter2Ego
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
You are now repeating yourself. Already answer multiple times.

I have already posted the full meaning of Elohim.

Again, I ask you to show me a pagan god with an -im suffix as you have claimed.
 

Alter2Ego

New Member
In one of my last replies, I quoted a source that confirms that the Hebrew word "Elohim" can be used for SINGULAR god as well as for PLURAL gods. Notice the source again.
I posted sources showing that, including Jewish one.

No linguist will support your claim that -im is singular in composition. It is like adding an 's' or 'es' to English words.

CoreIssue:

Therein lies your confusion. You have managed to convince yourself that "im" is added to words in Hebrew to make them plural, just as "s" is added to words in English to make them plural. What you do not understand are the following:

1. Words that end with "im" in Hebrew are neutral words. The "im" is not an addition; it is how the word is spelled, regardless of whether the word is singular or plural.

2. You are attempting to apply English rules of plurals to Hebrew. In English, the plural is found in the noun. In certain Hebrew words (such as Elohim), the plural is found in the accompanying verb or adjective but not in the noun. In fact, I will demonstrate an example of English plural for the sake of this discussion.

SINGULAR: "The cow [singular noun] ate [verb] grass."


PLURAL: "The
cows [plural noun] ate [verb] grass."

Notice that in English, the plural is on the noun (cow/cows) while the verb "ate" does not change. The reverse applies to certain Hebrew nouns. In certain Hebrew nouns, the noun never changes its ending regardless of whether it is with reference to something that is singular or plural. Instead, the accompanying verb or accompanying adjective takes on the plural. This is confirmed by one of the sources that I quoted for you on two different occasions. Below is a partial quotation from the same source again.


Elohim (אֱלהִים) is a grammatically singular or plural noun for "god" or "gods" in both modern and ancient Hebrew language. When used with SINGULAR VERBS and ADJECTIVES elohim is usually singular, "god" or especially, the God. When used with PLURAL VERBS and ADJECTIVES elohim is usually plural, "gods" or "powers".
http://www.definitions.net/definition/elohim


See that? Elohim happens to be one of the Hebrew nouns that follows the rule in which the noun retains the exact same spelling, while the plural is expressed only in the accompanying verb or the adjective. So in order for the Hebrew noun Elohim to refer to plural gods, it must be accompanied by either a plural verb or a plural adjective.

At Deuteronomy 6:4 where the Shema appears, Elohim is accompanied by a singular verb, which indicates it is referring to a singular God.


"Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our Elohim/God is one Jehovah." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

The accompanying verb "is" as in "our God is one Jehovah" happens to be singular. The plural of "is" happens to be "are". So if Deuteronomy 6:4 had been talking about a 3-in-1 god, it would have had to use a plural verb. Instead of "our God is one Jehovah," we would have ended up with "our God are one Jehovah."



Alter2Ego
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
We have both had our say and strongly disagree, so leave it up to others to decide for themselves.

Constantly repeating your statements proves nothing. Especially when I have posted proofs to the contrary from linguistic sites, etc.

You post so-called proofs but misrepresent what that are saying. Or give proofs that are easily proven false.

Even more so when you make claims, such as -im is used for pagan gods, but cannot provide a single god with -im in their name.
 
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