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Lampstands

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
I said the lampstands were related to 3 covenants. And the topic is lampstands, not covenants.

Nor did I say the lampstand were covenants.

We are not under the New Covenant. That will be to the Houses of Israel and Judah in the future, we are neither House unless you are claiming Replacement Theology. Are you?

The Church is different because born-again is an immediate event, not future like with the other covenants. The covenant is simple, Unconditional salvation by grace. Eternal Security.

The other two are conditional.

Assigning the New Covenant to the Church is a theological invention by the Catholic Church a long time ago because they do believe in Replacement theology and Conditional Salvation.
Jeremiah 31
“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
That is spelled out again in Hebrew 8. Hebrews is written to the Jews, not the Gentiles.

The New Covenant is future. It is not to the Gentiles.

The topic is the Lampstands. One of the reasons I asked that question that was is exactly because of what they represent. And because there was no Lampstands before Israel and will be none in Eternity future.

Also to force people to think about what they believe in a different way. Obviously it is working here.

I repeat, the Lampstands are not covenants. They are about specific covenants that have unique purposes no other covenants possess.

They are brought up time and time again. So they have a reason and purpose we should study.

We have discussed covenants before and can do so again.But not in this thread.

Where am I wrong on any aspect of what the parts of the Lampstands symbolize?
 
I have never met a true "Born Again" Christian that didn't know that Christ's death on the cross ushered in the New Covenant for all who believe!
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
Oh, there are a lot out there that know better. Just like Christ was not born on Christmas. And other errors.

I gave verse proof the New Covenant is to the Houses of Israel and Judah, not us.

You made a declaration I am wrong. Prove it.

I already gave verse proof it is not.
 
HEBREWS 8:13 13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
MATTHEW 26:28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
HEBREWS 9:14-17 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
You made a declaration I am wrong. Prove it.

Prove it, if you don't already know, I certainly won't be able to prove it to you....just the scriptures above would do that for most.....besides it is a heart thing...I pray that Jesus is in or gets in you heart....God Bless
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
You conveniently did not mention the verses say the Covenant is to the Houses of Israel and Judah.

Or that Hebrews and Matthew were written to the Jews.

Are you saying we are those Houses?

You keep dodging those issues.

Heart thing? That is the argument of a lot of cults.
 
I won't reciprocate with hurling insults and you are an Administrator?! You need to stick to your own guidelines. I look forward to other discussions but I am done with this one!
God Bless and I pray for your future spiritual growth!
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
The simple fact is you refused to address the verses I posted at least 3 times. So, how can there be a discussion when someone does this and keeps making the same disproven claims over and over?

Hopefully you will think about the issue on the Lampstands and the New Covenant being to the Houses of Israel and Judah.

If you change your mind, please come back and we can talk about those verses.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
For everyone else, back to the Lampstands.

Obviously it is a simple sounding topic that isn't.
 
Hopefully you will think about the issue on the Lampstands and the New Covenant being to the Houses of Israel and Judah.
No, you have this completely wrong!
Forget Lampstands. Jesus, death on the cross, and nothing else, ushered in God's promised New Covenant for ALL unbelievers, Houses of Judah, Israel and Gentiles alike. If you are truly "Born Again", it is ONLY because of this loving act of Jesus. The New Covenant has been in force since the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and signifies God's salvation by grace alone for all non-believers; this is the gospel that we are charged with spreading. Nothing else is do!
 

Willy

Pro Poster
Hi Joe,

Of course all forgiveness is based on the finished work of the Cross but would you consider letting God have a timetable for how He deals with different entities, i.e. the Church and Israel? Israel has their eyes veiled at the moment and they cannot understand their own scripture. Gentiles have been grafted in and there is a time in the future where they will be removed and God again will deal with Israel.

You will find many people divide scripture a little differently than others, some take it literally, others not so much, but the tie that binds us is our sole dependence on our Lord Jesus on the Cross for our sins. That makes us children by adoption and safely protected by God.

Happy to have you aboard ..!
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
Willy said it well. I agree with him.
Hopefully you will think about the issue on the Lampstands and the New Covenant being to the Houses of Israel and Judah.
No, you have this completely wrong!
Actually, I do not. I gave verses to back what I said. verses you have not addressed.
Forget Lampstands.
That is the topic of the thread. I am still waiting for you address what I have pointed out about them.

Really, I am totally puzzled you do not wish to answer. Really.
Jesus, death on the cross, and nothing else, ushered in God's promised New Covenant for ALL unbelievers, Houses of Judah, Israel and Gentiles alike
.
I gave you there verses that refute that statment. You have not addressed them directly.
If you are truly "Born Again", it is ONLY because of this loving act of Jesus.
Of course. For those under the Mosaic Covenent, it was an future promise. The Church, immediate and the New future. The Mosaic and New are to Israel. The Church to all.
The New Covenant has been in force since the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and signifies God's salvation by grace alone for all non-believers; this is the gospel that we are charged with spreading. Nothing else is do!
Not according to the verses I provided.

By saying it is now, what covenant with the restored Israel be under in the Trib and MK?

And what covenant are the Two Witness Lampstands for?

See the problems your thinking creates when put up against the Bible.

This is a good discussion since many think as you do. Just as many agree with Catholic theology and read the Bible very differently.

Now please deal with the verse stating the New is to the Houses of Israel and Judah. Not one word about Gentiles.

And the fact that there are 3 different Lampstands attached to three different covenants.

I really want to hear your explanation.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
And you talked about insults.

You have not explained anything, just made unsupported declarations.

By the way, I have been study religion and the Bible for 55 years. So you really need to stop acting like I know nothing.

So, drop the insults and let us discuss it. See where the facts lead.

By the way, I am a literalist. So, if you wish to use symbolic or figurative arguments, you have to prove them as
well.

I doubt there is one I have not heard multiple times already.
 
And you talked about insults.
What I said was the truth. I said you had no clue, that is the same as saying you are wrong. There is no comparison to you associating me with a cult, simply because you have no answer. I wasn't offended at your name calling, I am sorry the truth hurts!
By the way, I am a literalist. So, if you wish to use symbolic or figurative arguments, you have to prove them as
well.
You need to understand the Bible better, especially because your idea of the New Covenant is preposterous. I am sure the overwhelming majority of the "Born Again" Christians know the New Covenant as I do. We don't use symbolism, figurative arguments, allegories, parables are anything you could possibly come up with to discredit us. I am truly sorry that you are insulted......the rest of us know the "literal"gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ which ushered in the New Covenant, the promise of salvation for ALL non-believers by the power of God's grace!
I will give you these scriptures again about the New Covenant; the least you can do is give us your explanation of them:
HEBREWS 8:13 13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
MATTHEW 26:28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
HEBREWS 9:14-17 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
It is not a vote with majority wins. If so we would all be Catholic.

Yet again, you failed to cover all the verses. So, I will.

Bur first, your verses were not written to Gentiles, but only Jews.

Second you deliberately posted them out of order.
Matthew 26
26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Which covenant?

This was written to Jews during the Mosaic Covenant. His blood most assuredly was part of that covenant.
Hebrews 8
But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said::

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.

9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
This passage is written ONLY the Jews.

Chapter 9 continues the passage. It is not new passage. It is still about the New Covenant to the Houses of Israel and Judah.
Hebrews 9
14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. 23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Christ has not come the second time yet.

You referenced material regarding the Mosaic Covenant and called it the New Covenant. Doing so while Christ was still alive and under the Mosaic.

Then you went to Hebrews and split a long passage up and failed to reference it clearly states the New Covenant is to the Houses of Israel and Judah only.

Also failed to note it is prophetic, since the Houses were divided, their nation would end and they would be without a home for centuries.

During the interlude the Church has existed and Israel was restored as a nation in 1948.

But, even then, no New Covenant. That will come with the Rapture of the Church, First Seal, revealing of the AC and the Two Witnesses Lampstand descending to the earth.

During the Trib it is all Israel again. Not one mention of the Church.

And on into the MK. Where the Temple will be there again.

Only in the Church Age are we born-again on this earth. Only in the Church Age is there no physical temple with sacrifices, priests, etc.

There is no way around it. We are not under the New Covenant to the Houses of Israel and Judah.

Or, do you believe in Replacement Theology?
 
Again, you won't or can't answer my verses directly, but I will address yours:

Bur first, your verses were not written to Gentiles, but only Jews.[/QUOTE
You just don't get it......it is not so much the Gentile or the Jew but to the UNBELIEVER! A Jew was an unbeliever, as well as the Gentile.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. ( answer this verse if you can /will!)
You referenced material regarding the Mosaic Covenant and called it the New Covenant. Doing so while Christ was still alive and under the Mosaic.
This was written to Jews during the Mosaic Covenant. His blood most assuredly was part of that covenant.
Christ was fully under the Mosaic Law before his death; upon his death, he was no longer under the Law but he ushered in the NEW COVENANT and was under the law of Grace! I have clearly already given you a list of all of God's covenants that he has handed down. The New Covenant was the last and, which is last, supersedes all the covenants before!

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. This is YOUR quote and you don't even understand it!

If what you say were true, no one is saved yet....totally and completely wrong. To be saved is to have Christ in you.In the future, the dead IN CHRIST, will be raised first, then the living IN CHRIST will be raised next! The Bible is clear about the resurrection and Paul said those who don't believe in the resurrection are to be pitied above all. You are flirting with him pitting you!I have given up on discussing Lampstands with you and now, I give up on discussing the New Covenant with you.
Good day and God Bless!
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
Again you disregard the verses. It says the New Covenant was to Israel and Judah. Period.

The First Covenant was to the Jews, not Gentiles as well.

The blood and salvation promises existed since Adam and Eve. It did not begin with the Mosaic, or no one before then would or could be saved.

The three covenants deal with salvation issues. They are not salvation.

Yet again, you refuse to deal with to whom the covenants are made.
 
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